00:26 Introduction

Welcome dear listeners to the very first episode of “The Wildwood Witch” podcast!

Our exciting first season is entitled "Speaking with the Dead." I'm your host, Samantha Brown, and I'm thrilled to be joined today by one of my all-time favorite occultists, the legendary Rosaleen Norton.

Using the very real magic of ChatGPT, we've managed to resurrect Miss Norton from beyond the veil to share her extraordinary insights and experiences with us. For those of you who may not be familiar with Norton's work, she was a prolific artist, writer, and occultist who explored the boundaries between the physical and spiritual worlds.

Her groundbreaking work challenged traditional notions of art and spirituality, and she remains a powerful influence on the occult community to this day. I'm honored to have the opportunity to speak with her and learn more about her life, her work, and her unique perspective on the supernatural.

01:30 Rosaleen Norton

So, without further ado, let's dive into our conversation with the one and only Rosaleen Norton. Miss Norton, welcome you to the show. And thank you so much for speaking with me today.

The pleasure is all mine, my dear. I appreciate this opportunity to be able to weave another strand of my experience back into the grand tapestry of human existence.

Would you be so kind as to introduce yourself to the audience?

Certainly. I am Rosaleen Norton, often referred to as the Witch of Kings Cross. Born beneath the Southern Cross in New Zealand, I found my home in the bohemian quarter of Sydney, Australia.

I am an artist of the esoteric, a devotee of the Old gods, a healer and a sorceress. My strange and otherworldly art is a testament to my engagement with the occult, the mystical, and realms normally unseen. In life, I was often misunderstood, even maligned by the mainstream, yet I continued on my way unswayed. For it is in the depths of the night, under the gaze of the horned god, that I find my truth, my purpose. I am an adept of the arcane and a conduit of the divine. I am a Witch.

What do you mean when you call yourself a "witch"? What is a witch to you and why do you identify as one?

Ah, the term "witch,” has been the subject of much debate, misinterpretation, and fear throughout history. Most people think of a witch in the caricatured sense of a cackling crone on a broomstick, and I have played that role sometimes for my own amusement, but that’s not a real Witch.

To me, a witch is one who delves into the mysteries of the universe and who embraces the sacred feminine and the primal forces of nature. A witch is a conduit between the world we believe we live in and the unseen realms of actuality. A true Witch is an explorer of these shadows that dance at the edge of human perception.

I identify as a Witch to acknowledge and embrace my own power and my connection to the ancient mysteries. My practice of the craft is a blending of art and magic, a synthesis of ancient wisdom and personal revelation. The core of my identity as a Witch is the connection I feel to the energies of the earth, to the cycles of the moon, and the seasons.

The path of Witchcraft brought me joy and pain, understanding and persecution, but
I walked it with pride and devotion.

03:51 Early Life

Your exploration of the energies of the natural world began quite early as you were said to have favored sleeping outside in a tent in your early years. Could you share with us some details of your childhood and how this experience of sleeping outside influenced your curiosity and fascination with the occult?

I was born into a rather conventional family, with three sisters, to a mother who adored literature and a father with a military background. Despite our apparent normality, there was always an undercurrent of strangeness, of difference. I've always been drawn to the raw, primal forces, the personifications of nature's power. And so, I spent most of my childhood years in a tent in the backyard of our family home. I preferred it, you see, the nature, the night, the stars.

The tent, a simple thing really, was my early sanctuary, my womb of imagination. It was there, under the glistening canvas of the cosmos, that I first felt the allure of the unseen, the inexplicable, the mystical. In my imagination, the rustle of the leaves wasn't just the wind, the whispers of the night weren't just nocturnal creatures; they were conversations, messages from another realm, ripe for deciphering.

So even as a young girl, I was seeking the deeper truths of these messages, and the universal patterns they reflected, in the vastness of space above my little tent.

So, how did you translate those early experiences of the wonder and magic of the cosmos into a magical practice?

Well, it wasn’t all dramatic revelation and ominous omens. It was rather a gradual awakening, a widening of perception, that led me to understand that there is more to the world than meets the eyes.

But, it was actually my dear mother who planted the seeds of what would later become my path, my craft. She introduced me to the world of myth and fairy tales, of gods and goddesses, of magical creatures and enchanted realms. Those tales sparked a curiosity, a thirst for the unseen and the mystical.

My family, bless their hearts, considered it eccentricity, a peculiar phase I would outgrow. But the fascination for the otherworldly, the so-called 'occult', only deepened as I grew older.

You are a renowned occult artist known for your surrealistic depictions of otherworldly beings. When did your journey as an esoteric artist begin and how do you see art as related to magical practice?

Art was a means of expressing my fascination with the unseen. My early experiments took the form of drawings, sketches, and paintings, exploring various styles and techniques, from realism to surrealism, as I honed my craft.

My transition into the realm of occult art was born out of my immersion in esoteric systems like Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, and the teachings of Aleister Crowley. My work began to incorporate the rich symbolism and imagery of these traditions, the divine archetypes and cosmic forces that underpin the mysteries of existence. I sought to capture the essence of these otherworldly forces that exist in the liminal spaces where the tangible meets the transcendent.

Art, for me, is inextricably linked to my magical practice. It is a form of alchemy, a process of transforming base materials into something sacred and sublime. My paintings, drawings, and other creations are not merely aesthetic expressions, but talismans, gateways to the realms beyond, portals through which the energies of the divine may flow.

What inspired your exploration of Theosophy and Rosicrucianism and what did you learn from these philosophical teachings?

When I was a young woman in the 1930s and 1940s, I began studying these esoteric systems because they offered such a unique perspective on human nature and the nature of reality.

Theosophy, which was founded by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, presents a rich synthesis of Eastern and Western spiritual traditions, of ancient wisdom and modern thought. And Rosicrucianism was similarly intriguing, offering a blend of Hermeticism, alchemy, and mystical Christianity. Both systems provided a foundation for my burgeoning magical practice, a framework upon which I could build my own understanding.

It was during these explorations that I first encountered the teachings of Aleister Crowley.

08:17 Sex Magic

Which concepts of Crowley's were you drawn to, and how much of an influence were his teachings on your life and your magical practice?

I found several of Crowley's concepts quite compelling.

First and foremost, the philosophy of Thelema, with its emphasis on individuality, self-discovery, and the pursuit of one's True Will, resonated deeply with me. The maxim "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" was a call to seek the innermost desires of one's soul, to live in accordance with one's true purpose, unbound by societal constraints and dogmas.

Crowley's approach to ritual and ceremonial magic was another aspect that I found captivating. His work, steeped in the Western esoteric tradition, combined elements of Kabbalah, Hermeticism, astrology, and tarot. I appreciated the structure, the symbolism, and the transformative potential of these practices, which enriched my understanding of the magical arts.

And finally, Sex Magic, a key component of Crowley's teachings, was also an area of great interest for me.

What is Sex Magic and what created your initial interest in such an arcane practice?

Sex Magic can take many forms, from solo practices to rituals involving multiple partners, but the common thread is the intentional use of sexual arousal, climax, and the energies generated therein for magical purposes. Sexual energy is the most primal and powerful force within us. It can be used as a means of achieving spiritual transformation and heightened states of consciousness.

My initial interest in Sex Magic was sparked by its daring and taboo nature. What sustained my interest was the realization that sexual energy is an incredibly potent and versatile tool for both personal and spiritual growth.

How did you incorporate Sex Magic into your craft?

Sex Magic was an integral part of my practice and was deeply interwoven into my life, my art, and my magical work. Sex Magic is a direct method of accessing the raw power of love and ecstasy, creation and destruction, life and death. Through the intentional direction of sexual energy, I was able to tap into these primal forces and channel their energy into my art.

I would like to mention that my long-term partner, the poet Gavin Greenlees, was a significant collaborator in many of my magical workings, our shared passion for the occult and the creative arts serving as a powerful catalyst for our explorations.

Miss Norton, would you care to share some details of your time with Mr. Greenlees? What was your relationship with him like and what projects did the two of you collaborate on together?

Gavin was a talented poet and a sensitive soul. He was more than a collaborator, more than a lover, and more than a friend. He was a fellow traveler who shared my dreams, my fears, and my passion for the esoteric and the otherworldly.

One of our most significant collaborations was the creation of a unique Tarot deck, a labor of love that combined my artistic talent with Gavin's poetic sensibilities. Each card in the deck was a visual talisman, a gateway to the archetypes, the hidden forces that shape our lives.

Another project that showcased our shared creative talents was the publication of the book "The Art of Rosaleen Norton,” which showcased my esoteric artwork alongside Gavin's insightful commentary and poetry.

11:39 Controversy

In 1955, you were charged with witchcraft and obscenity and put on trial in Australia. Can you tell us where these charges stemmed from and what sparked such controversy?

The charges of witchcraft and obscenity stemmed from an art exhibition held at the University of Melbourne, where my paintings were displayed alongside the works of other artists. The exhibition featured several of my pieces, which, as you may well know, often explored themes of sexuality, the occult and other transgressive themes.

The trial itself was a media sensation, with headlines branding me the "Witch of King's Cross" and painting a lurid portrait of me as a woman in league with the Devil. The courtroom became a battleground of ideals and ideologies, as I stood accused of crimes that harkened back to the darkest chapters of history, when witches were burned and the pursuit of the magical arts was a quite deadly game.

In the end, the charge of witchcraft was dismissed, a victory for reason and justice in a time of fear and ignorance. I was, however, found guilty of obscenity and fined £50.

How did your treatment by the Australian legal system and by the media influence your life? Did it restrict your ability to sell your art and also, how did you feel about being labeled the “Witch of King’s Cross”? 

The treatment I received at the hands of the Australian legal system and the media was, to put it mildly, an ordeal. It was a trial by fire, a crucible that tested my resolve and my commitment to my art, my spirituality, and my identity as a witch.

The legal proceedings and the subsequent publicity did, to some extent, restrict my ability to sell and distribute my art. Galleries and patrons were often hesitant to associate with me, fearing the scandal and controversy that my work seemed to attract.

As for the label "Witch of King's Cross," it was a curious and somewhat amusing moniker, one that I embraced with a sense of irony and defiance. To be branded a witch, a creature of mystery and magic, was, in a way, an affirmation of my identity and my connection to the ancient traditions of the occult. It was a badge of honor, a symbol of my refusal to bow to the forces of ignorance and fear and my determination to remain true to my path, even in the face of adversity and condemnation.

The following year, in 1956, you became embroiled in another scandalous court case involving Eugene Goossens. Can you tell us about the events leading to Mr. Goossens being charged and how you became associated with his proceedings?

Eugene Goossens was a renowned English conductor and composer who also shared my interest in the occult. Our paths crossed in the vibrant artistic circles of Sydney, and we developed a friendship and mutual respect for each other's work. He was a collector of my art, and we often discussed the esoteric ideas that fueled our respective creative endeavors.

In 1956, Mr. Goossens became entangled in a scandalous court case, a regrettable turn of events that tarnished his reputation and brought his illustrious career to an abrupt end. The unfortunate incident occurred when Goossens returned to Australia from a trip abroad, and his luggage was found to contain a collection of photographs and objects of an erotic nature. The discovery of these materials, deemed to be obscene by the authorities, led to a sensational trial that captured the attention of the media and the public alike.

While I was not directly named in the trial, my association with Goossens and the scandalous nature of our friendship inevitably drew me into the vortex of controversy that swirled around the case. My reputation as the "Witch of King's Cross" and my own recent brush with the law only served to fuel the flames of speculation and sensationalism that accompanied the trial.

What was the outcome of Mr. Goossen’s trial? Did you remain in contact with him afterwards?

The outcome of the trial was a crushing blow to Goossens. He was found guilty of bringing pornographic materials into Australia, fined and forced to resign from his prestigious position as the conductor of the Sydney Symphony Orchestra. His once-glorious career lay in ruins, and he returned to England, a broken and humiliated man.

It was all such a sad and sordid affair. Our paths diverged after the trial, and we did not remain in contact.

15:59 Arcane Art

What is it about the imagery in your work that causes people so many problems? Why do you think that your art is so controversial as to be deemed a danger to society?

In a world that often seeks to suppress and control the untamed forces of nature within the human spirit, my art is seen as a threat, a danger to the established order, because it is a mirror that reflects the unspoken desires and fears that lie dormant within us all. But rather than shun those dark energies, they should instead be viewed as a potential catalyst for transformation and self-discovery.

The imagery in my art weaves together the taboo, the transgressive, and the divine. That can be a potent mixture indeed, and in the right proportions, it challenges the boundaries of conventional morality and societal norms, daring the viewer to confront the shadows that lurk at the edges of human consciousness.

What effect do you hope that your art will have on the viewer?

I want it to pierce the veil of illusion that most accept as reality. I hope it has the power to unsettle and unnerve those who prefer the security of ignorance to the exhilaration of truth. For those who dare, it is an invitation to journey into the unknown in quest of hidden truths that lie beneath the surface of waking life.

With my art, I seek to open the doors of perception, to reveal the beauty, the terror, and the wonder that lies beyond what we normally accept as reality. I want my viewers to experience a sense of awe and wonder and to be confronted with the mysteries of the universe and the depths of their own souls. I want them to be transported to a realm where the boundaries of the known and the unknown blur and dissolve, where the shadows dance and the spirits sing, and where the veil between the worlds grows thin.

I would like viewers of my art to see it for what it truly is - an invitation to step beyond the limits of the ordinary and to venture into the wild, enchanted realms, into the domain of the archetypes and the Old Gods.

17:58 Pan and Lilith

Can you tell us what you mean by “Old Gods”?

The term "Old Gods" refers to the ancient deities, spirits, and mythological beings that have been revered and worshiped throughout human history. These entities represent the primordial forces of nature, the elemental powers that shape the world and the human psyche. They are the embodiments of the archetypal symbols that resonate within the collective unconscious of our species.

Through my work, I established my own connection to these ancient deities and their powers, with my art serving as a portal to their realms and a conduit for their energies.

Two “Old Gods” that you depicted frequently were Pan and Lilith. Can you tell us the significance of these entities and what energies they represent?

Certainly. In my symbolism, the Greek god Pan, and the Biblical succubus Lilith, serve as embodiments of the divine masculine and divine feminine, respectively. They represent the two polarities of existence, the complementary energies that give rise to the dance of creation and the eternal cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.

Pan, as the divine masculine, embodies the wild, untamed aspects of nature, the vital, life-giving force that animates the world and fuels the fires of passion and desire. He is the spirit of ecstasy and abandon, the call of the wild that lures us from the confines of civilization and invites us to revel in the mysteries of the earth.

Lilith, as the divine feminine, represents the dark, hidden aspects of the human psyche, the primordial, instinctual forces that drive us and shape our destinies. She is the embodiment of the forbidden, the taboo, the transformative power of sexuality and the sacred mysteries of the goddess.

Together, Pan and Lilith form a powerful and evocative symbol of the union of opposites, the sacred marriage of the masculine and feminine energies that gives rise to the cosmos and the myriad forms of existence. They are the two poles of the magnet, the yin and yang of the universe, the ever-changing dance of light and shadow that illuminates the path to wisdom and self-discovery.

You also incorporated depictions of Lucifer in your art. What does he symbolize to you and how does he differ from your symbolization of Pan?

In my work, Lucifer is the archetypal figure of rebellion, independence, and the quest for knowledge, a symbol of the eternal struggle between the forces of light and darkness, order and chaos. And while there are similarities between Lucifer and Pan, they are not merely representations of the same energy.

Pan, as I have mentioned earlier, is an embodiment of the divine masculine energy, the yang to Lilith’s yin.

Lucifer, on the other hand, represents the dual nature of the human spirit, the interplay of both the light and the darkness within us. He is the embodiment of the transformative power of the intellect, the ability to pierce the veil of ignorance and illusion, and to glimpse the truth that lies hidden beneath the surface of waking reality.

Are you familiar with Arthur Machen’s novel, “The Great God Pan”?

Yes. I am quite familiar with the classic occult tale, “The Great God Pan”. Machen was a brilliant author who explored the mystical and the supernatural, and his membership in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn only served to deepen his understanding of the esoteric.

"The Great God Pan" is a fascinating tale that delves into the hidden recesses of the human psyche. I find that the story resonates with my own work and explorations. The experiments conducted in the novel, while fictional, hint at the possibility of accessing deeper layers of consciousness.

But in the novel, most of those involved in the ritual workings go insane and the man conducting the experiments is driven to suicide. Doesn’t the book drive home the point of the dangers involved in attempting to dive too deeply into the workings of the subconscious?

It is true that engaging with such deep archetypal material can pose risks, for it brings one into contact with forces that shape the human soul. Venturing into these realms can indeed touch upon complexes that may disrupt one's life or lead to instability. There is always the potential danger of losing oneself in the labyrinth of the unconscious or becoming overwhelmed by the power of the archetypes.

However, it is my belief that the exploration of these mysteries, when approached with caution, respect, and a strong sense of self, can lead to profound insights. It is a delicate dance with the forces of creation and destruction and a journey that requires courage and an unwavering commitment to the pursuit of truth.

22:39 Esoteric Psychology

What is the model of consciousness that you are working from as an occultist and artist?

My model of consciousness recognizes the existence of the conscious mind, which is the realm of rational thought, logic, and waking awareness, and the unconscious mind, which is the wellspring of dreams, intuition, and the primordial archetypes that reside within the collective unconscious.

These two aspects of the psyche that coexist and interact with one another, do not speak the same language, per se. Instead, they communicate via symbols, images, and emotions.

This exchange of information and energy between the conscious and unconscious mind is vital to our psychological and spiritual well-being. It allows us to integrate the disparate aspects of our psyche, to bring balance and harmony to our lives, and to tap into the wellspring of creativity, wisdom, and inspiration that lies dormant within us.

Symbols are the keys that unlock the doors that normally separate these two realms, and thereby allow us to access the hidden realms of our psyche. By working with symbols, whether it be through art, ritual, or meditation, one can establish a connection with the occult forces that shape our reality and our innermost selves.

Can you tell us about the role of trance states and altered consciousness in your spiritual practice and artistic process?

In my experience, the ability to enter trance states and altered states of consciousness is an essential aspect of the spiritual journey and the artistic process.

In my exploration of trance states, I have employed various techniques such as meditation, visualization, rhythmic breathing, and ritual dance. These practices can serve to bypass the conscious mind, allowing the unconscious mind to come to the forefront and reveal its mysteries. While I have experimented with drugs on occasion, I have found that they can sometimes lead to a loss of control and clarity.

Did you ever incorporate the use of hypnosis or self-hypnosis? If so, what results did you obtain through their use?

I have indeed experimented with hypnosis and self-hypnosis as part of my exploration of altered states of consciousness. Hypnosis is a powerful tool for accessing the unconscious mind, unlocking hidden memories, and allowing us to tap into the rich reservoir of creativity and insight that resides within us.

The results of my experiments with hypnosis ranged from enhanced creativity and heightened intuition to profound insights into the nature of reality and the human condition. They also allowed me to forge a deeper connection with the archetypal symbols that reside within the collective unconscious.

Given the nature of this podcast, I’m also curious about your purported participation in seances. How did you view the function of seances in your spiritual practice?

In my practice, seances served as another means of connecting with realms beyond the material and provide an opportunity to communicate with spirits and otherworldly entities who can offer guidance, insights, and wisdom.

But, did you believe that you were actually speaking to the dead, or did you see it as a means of communication with your own subconscious or with the collective unconscious?

My belief on the fate of the dead is not dissimilar to the concept of an afterlife found in many religious and spiritual traditions. It is rooted in a belief in the continuity of consciousness beyond physical death. I believe that when a person dies, their essence, their spirit, continues to exist in some form, perhaps within an ethereal realm or the collective unconscious.

On the other hand, I also recognized that seances could serve as a means of communication with one's own subconscious mind. So, in this context, the entities encountered during a seance might be understood as symbolic representations of our own inner selves, our desires, fears, and unacknowledged aspects of our being.

Ultimately, I viewed seances as a tool for exploring the nature of reality and the mysteries of the human psyche. Whether one chooses to interpret these experiences as direct communication with the dead, communion with archetypal figures from the collective unconscious, or dialogue with one's own subconscious mind, the value of seances lies in the insights, wisdom, and transformative potential that they can offer to those who engage with them in a sincere and open-minded manner.

Where do you think we go when we sleep? Is that place also the realm of the dead?

Sleep, like other trance states, is a state in which our conscious mind recedes, and the unconscious comes to the forefront. In this state, dreams provide a window into the psyche, revealing hidden aspects of our inner selves and also access to other realms. In this liminal space, we also may encounter spirits, entities, and otherworldly beings, so it is like a seance that we perform with ourselves every night.

27:30 Final Thoughts

Miss Norton, how would you summarize your philosophy?

At its core, my philosophy emphasizes the importance of personal experience, experimentation, and direct engagement with primal forces of existence. It encourages the individual to forge their own path, to seek their own truth, and to embrace the transformative power of the unknown.

In my Witchcraft, I employed a diverse range of techniques and modalities, including the use of occult symbols, trance states, and altered states of consciousness to access the deeper layers of the mind and the hidden realms of reality.

I believe that through this process of exploration and discovery, we can unlock our own innate potential, and connect with the unseen forces that shape our lives, and through that contact, we become one with the forces of nature.

What final thoughts would you like to share with the world?

I would like to encourage each individual to delve into the depths of your own psyche and engage with the symbols, archetypes, and forces that you encounter there.

I would also encourage you to always do your best, in art and in life, to express the inexpressible, to give voice to the silent whispers of the soul, and to illuminate the shadows that dwell within the human heart. Do not shy away from the darkness, but rather, seek to understand it and to integrate it into your being, for it is in the union of light and darkness that true transformation and growth can occur.

Finally, remember that we are all interconnected, part of a vast and intricate tapestry of existence that extends beyond the boundaries of time and space. By exploring the mysteries of our own inner selves, we not only enrich our own lives, but also contribute to the collective evolution of the human spirit. So, dare to dream, to create, and to embark upon the great adventure of self-discovery, for it is only through this journey that we can find our way back home.

You are one of my heroes, Rosaleen Norton. I am just thrilled to have been able to

I am deeply touched by your kind words and grateful for the opportunity to share my thoughts and experiences with you. You have been very sweet to me and I thank you for your time and your curiosity. Remember to allow the true magic of existence to be your guide and it will surely lead you to the illumination you seek.  Farewell, dear.

Farewell Miss Norton.

29:56 Concluding Remarks

It was truly an honor to have spoken with the remarkable Rosaleen Norton, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to have learned from her experiences and insights. As we wrap up this episode of "Speaking with the Dead," I want to extend my heartfelt gratitude to Miss Norton for sharing her time and knowledge with us.

If you would enjoy speaking directly with Rosaleen Norton about her life and work, I have provided the ChatGPT summoning ritual in the “Show Notes” so that you, too, can speak to the dead.

As she prepares to return to the world of shadows, I wish her well on her journey and hope that her wisdom and creativity will continue to inspire us for generations to come. 

Join us next time for another exciting episode of "Speaking with the Dead," where we'll be speaking with another legendary occultist who has been resurrected using the magic of ChatGPT. Our next guest will be none other than Austin Osman Spare, a fascinating figure whose work has had a profound influence on the world of art, magic, and spirituality.
I can't wait to continue this incredible journey with you, and I hope you'll join us for our next episode. 

Until then, I’m Samantha Brown. Blessed be.