00:26 Introduction

Welcome, dear listeners, to another episode of “The Wildwood Witch” podcast. I’m Samantha Brown, your hostess and guide in the realm of the occult, the mystical and the esoteric.

I bring before you today another exciting episode in our series "Speaking with the Dead", in which I breathe life into famous dead occultists, and resurrect them using the very real magic of ChatGPT.

Our guest today is the one and only, Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers. Mathers is considered an authority on various magical traditions, including Kabbalah, alchemy, and ceremonial magic, but is perhaps best known as one of the founders of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. He was also a polyglot and a skilled translator, translating several important works on the occult, and making many of them accessible in English for the first time in history.

So without further ado, join me, as we learn from one of the true masters of the occult, the legendary Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers.

01:40 MacGregor Mathers

Mr. Mathers. Welcome to the show. It is an honor and a pleasure to be able to speak with you today.

The pleasure and honour are mine, Mistress Samantha, the renowned Wildwood Witch. In this modern world where science and technology reign, it is heartening to find those who still respect and explore the unseen dimensions of our existence. As another Phoenix you have resurrected from the ashes, I offer my sincere gratitude for the opportunity to share my thoughts with the world once again.

And, it is my pleasure to be able to do that. But, I take it from your response that you have heard of me and my show on the other side of the veil?

I have indeed, Samantha. Your fame and that of your broadcast reach beyond the mortal coil. Mr. Crowley, ever the one for theatrics, could scarcely contain his enthusiasm when speaking of it, though one must consider his penchant for the dramatic when interpreting his tales. But dear Miss Fortune also confirmed the validity of Crowley's claims, albeit in a more elegant manner.

Mr. Mathers, their high praise brings a warmth to my heart. One does not casually garner the attention of figures as luminous as Aleister Crowley and Dion Fortune. It is my sincerest hope that our dialogue today will live up to those spirited endorsements. So, to begin our conversation, would you be so kind as to introduce yourself to our audience?

Certainly, I am Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers. I am a translator of several notable works of magical literature, including "The Book of Abramelin", a system of Jewish mystical thought and practice that greatly influenced Western esotericism. I also translated and interpreted texts that brought the so-called “Angelic Language” of Enochian, to the attention of occultists, which has since become a cornerstone in many modern magical traditions.

I am also one of the principal founders of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, a society that sought the enlightenment of its members through the study and practice of the Occult Sciences.

Can you tell us a bit about your early life?

I was born in London in 1854, and my early life was marked by hardship and the stern teachings of adversity. My father, William Mathers, who was a clerk by trade, passed away when I was a young boy, leaving our family to face the harsh hand of destitution.

During those challenging times, I sought solace in the realm of books. Knowledge became my sanctuary, and the written word provided great comfort. While other boys my age sought thrills in games and adventures, I felt an irresistible pull towards the profound mysteries of life. I yearned to unravel the fundamental questions of existence: Who are we? Why are we here? What is our purpose?

04:31 Freemasonry

What sparked your interest in the occult as a means of answering such fundamental questions?

I would have to say that the influence of my neighbor, Fredrick Hockley, played a large part in my early interest. He was my neighbor when I moved to London in 1877 and was not only a Freemason, but an occultist and also a collector of magical texts, all of which I found fascinating. He had a profound impact on my early occult education.

Did he introduce you to Freemasonry?

Yes, he did. And, I was initiated into the sublime degree of Master Mason at Hengist Lodge No. 195 in Bournemouth in 1877. I was then 23 years old and had completed the three degrees in a relatively short period of time.

The initiation rituals, moral allegories, and philosophical teachings of Freemasonry were my introductory course into the Western Mysteries, and gave me the background I needed to further explore the occult landscape. Freemasonry preserves the symbolic language that forms the backbone of the Western Mystery Tradition, and I am very grateful for the knowledge I gained through my experience with them.

However, I did resign from the Lodge about five years later in 1882.

What prompted you to leave Freemasonry?

While I have great respect for the traditions and teachings of Freemasonry, I found that it was not a path that resonated deeply with my own spiritual and mystical interests. I became disillusioned with the organization's lack of emphasis on esotericism and its superficial approach to the occult.

I felt that Freemasonry did not go far enough in exploring the deeper mysteries of the universe, and instead focused too much on social and political connections. Leaving Freemasonry led me to seek out other avenues for my occult and intellectual pursuits.

What other avenues did you pursue in your esoteric interests after leaving Freemasonry?

First, I should clarify that my departure was from what is commonly referred to as the Blue Lodge, or Craft Masonry. Yet, my connection with Freemasonry was not entirely severed. The Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia (the S.R.I.A.), into which Frederick Hockley had introduced me, continued to serve as a fertile ground for my mystical explorations.

What new concepts or philosophies were you introduced to in the S.R.I.A.?

The S.R.I.A., is a society based upon Christian mysticism and Rosicrucian philosophy. It brought me into closer contact with the symbols and allegories that pervade Western esotericism, and introduced me to more profound and specialized aspects of this tradition, such as the Kabbalah.

This Jewish mystical tradition, with its intricate system of divine emanations and its path-working methods, proved to be a vast reservoir of wisdom. The teachings of the Kabbalah, coupled with the philosophical depth it offered, truly captured my intellect and spirit. This led to my study and translation of many foundational occult texts from the archives in the British Museum.

07:51 Kabbalah Unveiled

Can you elaborate on the time you spent translating ancient texts at the British Museum? What were some of the most significant texts you translated and why did you feel that they were important to make available to a wider audience by translating them into English?

During my time at the British Museum, I had the opportunity to work on a number of mystical and occult texts, but two of the most significant that I worked on were the "Sepher Yetzirah” and “The Kabbalah Unveiled”.

The Sepher Yetzirah is believed to have been written down in the early medieval period, around the 6th century of the Common Era. However, its origins are thought to be much older, with some scholars tracing the text back to the Hellenistic period or to an even earlier oral tradition of Jewish mysticism, with its teachings being passed down from teacher to student over many centuries. It describes the creation of the universe through the use of the ten Sephiroth, or divine emanations, and serves as a guide to the mystical aspects of the Torah.

Another foundational Kabbalistic text is the Zohar, which was originally written down in Aramaic and is believed to have been authored by the 2nd-century rabbi, Shimon bar Yochai. It contains commentary on the Torah, as well as discussions of various mystical concepts, such as the Sefirot and the nature of God.

In the 17th century, Christian Knorr von Rosenroth published “Kabbalah Denudata”, which was his Latin translation of various Kabbalistic texts, including the Zohar, the writings of Isaac Luria and others. “Denudata” is a Latin word that means "unveiled" or "revealed". So, I entitled my English translation of Rosenroth’s “Kabbalah Denudata” as “The Kabbalah Unveiled”.

My translations of these texts were significant in that they introduced many Kabbalistic concepts to the Western World for the first time.

Was your “Kabbalah Unveiled” a complete translation of “Kabbalah Denudata”?

No, I did not translate the entire text. My translation focused on a portion of the “Kabbalah Denudata” corpus called “The Book of the Concealed Mystery”, which is a mystical commentary on the Torah, originally written in Aramaic by the Spanish Jewish mystic Moses de Leon, in the late 13th century.

Mr. Mathers, as a polyglot, you were able to translate numerous esoteric texts into English. Can you share with us the various languages you worked with and how you acquired such proficiency? Did you receive formal education in languages, or was it through your own personal pursuits?

Yes, I was fluent in several languages, including French, German, Hebrew, Latin, Gaelic and Coptic, among others. I was mostly self-taught, as my interest in the occult led me to study many ancient and esoteric texts in their original languages, and I devoted a great deal of time and effort to mastering them. Though, of course, I have a greater command of some than others. I spent time living and studying in France and Germany, which helped me to become more fluent in those languages.

11:16 Cipher Manuscripts

In 1877, you co-founded the Golden Dawn, arguably one of the most influential occult groups of all time. Can you share with us how you came to be one of the founders of this organization?

I became friends with Dr. William Wynn Westcott and Dr. William Robert Woodman through our mutual involvement in the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia. The idea for an occult order originated in part from our shared desire for a more comprehensive and structured exploration of esoteric knowledge. We recognized the limitations inherent in the study groups and occult societies of the time and wished to establish an institution that offered a more rigorous and systematic exploration of the mysteries.

Can you tell us about the famous “Cipher Manuscript” and its significance in the founding of the Golden Dawn?

It would not be incorrect to call the “Cipher Manuscript” the “foundation stone” of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. The contents of these manuscripts, once deciphered, revealed a series of esoteric rituals and an integrated system of magical instruction across a range of esoteric disciplines, which became the basis for the Golden Dawn.

Can you tell us more about the origin and provenance of this manuscript, and what led you and other members of the Order to see it as a cornerstone on which to erect the Golden Dawn system?

In the late 18th century, a man by the name of Kenneth Mackenzie somehow came into possession of a manuscript containing a folio of pages of ciphered text, which was said to contain the teachings of an ancient magical order, but Mackenzie was allegedly unable to decipher it.

After Mackenzie's death, the manuscript eventually came into the possession of Rev. Adolphus Woodford, who gave it to his friend and associate of Dr. William Wynn Westcott to attempt to decipher. Dr. Westcott successfully deciphered the manuscript and shared his discovery with me. We then invited William Robert Woodman, to join us in founding an order based on the outline of the teachings it described.

Can you provide some detail on the content of the material contained in the Cipher Manuscript?

Certainly. These manuscripts consisted of 60 folios and were written in a substitution cipher named after its inventor, Johannes Trithemius, a German monk and cryptographer of the late 15th century.

The Cipher Manuscripts contained a wealth of information on a variety of esoteric topics include Kabbalah, Hermeticism, spiritual and angelic magic, Tarot and alchemy. The manuscripts presented the framework of an initiatory system of five grades, each corresponding to the first five Sephiroth of the Qabalistic Tree of Life.

They included ritual outlines and a skeletal structure for magical workings, but the specifics of the rituals, the symbolism, the inner teachings and correspondences, these were absent in the manuscripts.

So, how did you turn that outline into a working system of initiation?

Each grade had its own set of teachings, practices, and symbols. To create a working system of initiation out of this information was truly a collaborative effort among the founding members of the Order, who were, as I detailed earlier, Dr. Westcott, Dr. Woodman, and myself.

We drew upon our collective knowledge to try to create a system that was comprehensive, but also accessible to practitioners of all levels of experience. This required many hours of study, discussion, and experimentation, but the result of our labor was development of a series of rituals, meditations, and other practices designed to help initiates cultivate their own inner wisdom and spiritual power.

Overall, the system of initiation that emerged from the Cipher Manuscript, and our own creative efforts, was truly a groundbreaking achievement in the field of occultism, and one that, quite frankly, speaks for itself.

They do indeed. But, what in the Cipher Manuscripts gave you, and the other founders, the impression that you had the authority to found a spiritual Order?

Ah, yes Samantha. That is a delicate subject. Which, of course, you already know.

Anyway, among the folios Dr. Westcott said that he found an envelope. The information inside stated that the rituals in the manuscripts were part of a German Rosicrucian tradition. This group claimed to be in contact with the Secret Chiefs, who are spiritual entities that direct the course of human evolution. The letter contained information for contacting a member of this group, a German Adept named Anna Sprengel. She said that she had received a charter from the Secret Chiefs to establish an English branch of their Order.

So, to answer your question, we felt that we had a spiritual mandate from the Secret Chiefs to found the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

I know that you later came to possibly doubt the veracity of Dr. Westcott's claims about this mysterious Rosicrucian Order, but at the time of the founding of the Golden Dawn, did you believe that they were real and that Anna Sprengel was a real person?

At the time of the founding of the Golden Dawn, yes, I did indeed believe in the existence of Anna Sprengel. I was even able to contact her independently, though I’m not sure what to think of that contact now, as another person was able to impersonate her to me later to my great embarrassment.

But, I’ll have to say that in the beginning especially, the allure of a direct line of communication with an established Rosicrucian adept was compelling, and it provided a strong sense of legitimacy and historical continuity for our fledgling Order.

However, in 1896, almost 20 years after the founding, Dr. Westcott wrote to me and confessed that the letter found in the manuscript might have been his own creation.

And you then made Westcott’s admission public, which created a firestorm of controversy within the Order. **

It did. But In hindsight, whether Anna Sprengel truly existed or not became irrelevant. The Golden Dawn's legitimacy ultimately did not hinge on her existence but rather on the wisdom and value of the teachings we offered and the transformation these teachings facilitated in our members.

The Golden Dawn still serves, even today, as a living vessel of the Western Mystery Tradition, which is all the proof one should need to see that it was in fact, a divinely inspired endeavor.

18:01 The Golden Dawn

There was some question at the time of the establishment of the Golden Dawn as to whether women would be allowed to become members of the Order. What were the factors that played into the decision to allow women into the Order?

The question of whether women would be allowed to become members of the Golden Dawn was a subject of considerable debate among the founding members of the Order.

Initially, Dr. Woodman opposed the inclusion of women in the Order, arguing first, that it was contrary to tradition, and secondly, that women were not particularly suited to the rigorous study and practice demanded in the pursuit of the magical arts, and finally, pointing to potentially explosive effects of that could result from mixing the sexes together in a magical order.

On the other hand, I believed that women should be allowed to participate on equal terms with men. I argued that women were just as capable as men of mastering the principles and practices of the magical arts, and that their inclusion in the Order would enrich its activities and help to expand its influence.

Ultimately, the decision was made to allow women into the Order on equal terms with men. The inclusion of women in the Golden Dawn was a significant and groundbreaking development in the history of Western occultism, and it helped to pave the way for greater gender equality and inclusivity in the esoteric traditions that followed.

Your first female initiate was Mina Bergson, who would soon become your wife. Can you tell us a bit about Miss Bergson and the role she played in the Golden Dawn and in your life?

It would be my pleasure. My beloved Mina is known to the world as Moina Mathers. She was an extraordinary woman, whose role in the Golden Dawn and in my life cannot be overstated.

When we met, Moina was already an accomplished artist, having studied at the Slade School of Fine Art in London. She was the sister of Henri Bergson, who went on to win the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1927. Their exchanges on metaphysics and intuition had a profound impact on her and, by extension, our shared work within the Golden Dawn.

Our marriage in 1890 united not only our lives but our spiritual pursuits, and she became my indispensable partner in all Golden Dawn activities. Moina, because of her artistic vision and keen spiritual insights, was in many ways, the heart of the Golden Dawn. So, it is appropriate that she was the first female initiate of the Order.

The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn has had many influential members over the years, some of whom went on to achieve great fame and success. Can you tell us about some of the most noteworthy individuals who were members of the order and what contributions they made to the arts and to the Western esoteric tradition?

Certainly, here are ten famous members of the Golden Dawn, in no particular order:

The first I would mention is, Maude Gonne, an Irish revolutionary, feminist and actress. She was a prominent figure in the Irish nationalist movement and at one time a muse for the poet W.B. Yeats, who she introduced to the Order.

Yeats was an Irish poet and playwright, who was one of the most significant literary figures of the 20th century. He joined the Golden Dawn in 1890, and the teachings and practices of the Order had a profound influence on his work, particularly his later poetry.

Then there was Dion Fortune, the British occultist and author. Actually, Dion Fortune was the pen name of Violet Firth, a psychologist and therapist who incorporated psychological and psychoanalytic concepts into her work on esotericism and spiritual development. However, she is best known for her many esoteric books and for the organization she founded, the Society of the Inner Light.

Next, there was Arthur Machen, the Welsh author and mystic, who is best known for his supernatural horror stories, which often explore themes of the occult and the supernatural which were deeply influenced by his experiences in the Order.

Then, Pamela Coleman Smith, the talented artist and illustrator, perhaps best known for her work on the Rider-Waite tarot deck, which is the most popular and widely used tarot deck in the world.

And her collaborator on that project was Arthur Edward Waite, the British author and scholar of the occult, who is also known for his work on the history and symbolism of the tarot.

There was Florence Farr, who was an actress, director, and writer and a key figure in the development of the British theater in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

And of course, there was Aleister Crowley, the writer, poet, and magician, best known for his work on the philosophy and practice of Thelema. Crowley was a member of the Golden Dawn for a time, but later broke away from the Order to pursue his own magical path.

Then there was Annie Horniman, who was a British theater producer and philanthropist, and a significant figure in the London theater scene in the early 20th century. In addition to her magical contributions, she provided substantial financial support for the Order's activities.

And the final name on my brief list of famous Golden Dawn members is Israel Regardie, the American occultist and author, who was a student and secretary of Aleister Crowley. Regardie is best known for the publication in 1937 of a book that included a comprehensive overview of the teachings and practices of the Order, including many of its ritual workings. The publication of this material caused quite a stir among the remaining members of the Order, who felt that the secrecy and integrity of the Order had been compromised.

But the book was a significant event in the history of the Western esoteric tradition, as it made the teachings of the Golden Dawn available to a wider audience, and also helped to inspire the revival of interest in the Order's practices in the latter half of the 20th century.

Thank you for sharing that “Top 10 List” of illustrious members of the Golden Dawn with us. After the death of Dr. Woodman in 1891, you assumed leadership of the Golden Dawn. How many temples were ultimately established in London, and what was your membership at its peak?

There were several hundred members at its peak, it’s difficult to say a specific number. The number of Temples changed over time, but the Isis-Urania Temple was the first, established by myself and Dr. Westcott in 1888. This was followed by the Amen-Ra Temple, established in the East End in 1892.  And in the West End, the Horus Temple was established in 1893, and also the Osiris Temple in 1895.

24:58 The Second Order

Also, in 1891, Dr. Westcott announced that he had received a letter from the German Rosicrucian Order stating they had no further interest in the English branch of the Order, but you were given a new contact, correct?

Yes. Dr. Westcott allegedly received a letter, from the German Rosicrucian Order, expressing a desire to sever ties with us. Yet, they directed us to, a mysterious adept by the magical name of Lux E Tenebris, which is Latin for "Light out of Darkness".

And you met with this person yourself?

I did. Yes. In Paris.

Is this then how the Second Order of the Golden Dawn was established? Did this mysterious adept give you the rituals and teachings for the Second Order?

No. They did not personally give me the Second Order rituals. Instead, through this person, I was given a means to establish direct contact with the Secret Chiefs. It was these unseen guides, the true directors of the esoteric current, who bestowed upon me the knowledge and authority to devise the rituals and teachings of the Second Order.

That would seem to be a turning point in the history of the Golden Dawn then, wasn’t it?

Absolutely. It was a crucial turning point in the Order's history, granting it a higher level of spiritual independence and autonomy. It was at this point, that the Golden Dawn moved from a system based on the outer authority of supposed physical contacts to one founded on inner spiritual guidance.

Can you elaborate on the directive you were given by the Secret Chiefs. What did the establishment of a Second Order entail?

The Second Order was to be known as the "Rosae Rubeae et Aureae Crucis", or the "Ruby Rose and Golden Cross", and focused on more advanced magical teachings and practices, which were only to be made available to members after their successful completion of the previous degrees of the Order.

The Second Order rituals were intended to be a continuation of the work started in the First Order, and were designed to help the initiates achieve even greater spiritual growth and enlightenment. They were a reflection of the Secret Chiefs' desire to raise the consciousness of humanity and to help us all achieve our true potential.

What guidance were you given relative to the theme, or direction you were to take the rituals of the Second Order?

I was directed to use the 17th century legend of Christian Rosenkreutz as their framework.

According to the legend, Christian Rosenkreutz discovered the tomb of an ancient Eastern initiate. Within the tomb, he found a book of secret wisdom that contained instructions for performing spiritual exercises that lead to the attainment of great knowledge and power. Rosenkreutz studied and practiced the exercises, and over time he gained the promised knowledge and abilities.

The legend goes on to describe how Rosenkreutz founded a secret society of mystics and alchemists, known as the Rosicrucians, which were dedicated to preserving and practicing the wisdom contained in the book.

How is the symbolism of that story incorporated into the rituals of the Second Order?

The story is symbolic of the spiritual journey of a seeker who is on a quest for spiritual initiation and transformation. The Second Order was seen as an inner circle of initiates who had already undergone the spiritual journey symbolized by the tale of Christian Rosenkreutz.

The rituals of the Second Order were designed to lead the initiates on a deeper and more profound spiritual journey, culminating in the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.

28:47 Sacred Magic of Abramelin

What is meant by the phrase "Knowledge and Conversation of your Holy Guardian Angel"?

That phrase is one of profound significance within the Western Mystery Tradition.

The Holy Guardian Angel, contrary to popular belief, is not a separate 'guardian spirit' in the traditional sense, but rather the perfected, divine aspect of the self, one's own true and higher Will.

The 'Knowledge' of the Holy Guardian Angel pertains to an awareness and understanding of this divine component within us. It is the initial realisation that there is a divine spark within us that is not separate from the Divine Source, yet is uniquely our own. This knowledge illuminates the path towards our true purpose and potential, away from the trappings of the mundane and towards the Divine.

And finally, 'Conversation' with the Holy Guardian Angel refers to an ongoing dialogue and communion with this divine aspect of the self. It is a reciprocal relationship; not a mere mental exercise but rather an experience of profound spiritual communion and transformation.

In what way is this experience transformative?

Achieving the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is a significant milestone in one’s spiritual journey. It equates with the level of spiritual maturity and autonomy where one can directly access divine guidance and wisdom without the need for external intermediaries.

Which is how you described this moment in the Golden Dawn’s history, when they had direct access to the Secret Chiefs, through your contact with them, instead of indirectly through the German Order.

That is a very insightful point Samantha.

This process is of paramount importance to the Secret Chiefs, who are, in essence, embodiments of the divine plan guiding human evolution. Their role is not to enforce a predetermined path upon us, but rather to aid us in discovering and aligning with our own True Will, our divine purpose.

As each individual attains Knowledge and Conversation of their Holy Guardian Angel, they contribute to the overall evolution and enlightenment of humankind, thus fulfilling the higher purpose set by the Secret Chiefs.

And a process for the attainment of this experience is detailed in your book “The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage”. Can you tell us about this text and the process it describes?

Yes. “The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage” was originally written in Hebrew in the 15th century and was translated into French and later into German, and came into the possession of the English occultist and Rosicrucian, Thomas Vaughan, in the 17th century. I found the German language version in the Bibliotheque de l'Arsenal in Paris and translated it into English.

The process it describes, known as the Abramelin Operation, is a complex and demanding ritual exercise that spans over a period of from 6 to 18 months. The operation begins with a period of withdrawal from worldly affairs, purifications, and prayers, as the magician seeks to align themselves with the Divine. This is followed by a period of invocation, wherein the magician calls upon their Holy Guardian Angel to make itself known.

Is that the end of the process? Once you’ve established contact?

No. Once the magician has achieved Knowledge and Conversation of their Holy Guardian Angel, the next phase involves the evocation and binding of the twelve Kings and Dukes of Hell.

What does the binding of these demons actually mean in psychological terms?

The demons are representative of all of the negative aspects of the self that must be understood and integrated. Their division into Kingdoms is for the purpose of understanding their origin and function and why they must be mastered. The yoking of these forces to the True Will is a necessary condition in attaining self-mastery and equilibrium.

33:03 Enochian

A key component of the Golden Dawn magical system is Enochian. Can you tell us how you first became aware of the Enochian material and why it was included in the rituals and magical training of the Golden Dawn? Was it referred to in the Cipher Manuscripts?

Dr. John Dee, the esteemed Elizabethan polymath, and his scryer Edward Kelley are the source of one of the most profound magical systems of our time: the Enochian system of angelic magic. I first encountered the works of Dee during my early explorations of esoteric literature, well before the foundation of the Golden Dawn.

But, Enochian was not part of the initial teachings of the Golden Dawn as outlined in the Cipher Manuscripts. I was directed to incorporate these teachings into the Second Order curriculum and then to integrate this new understanding into the First Order grades.

Can you provide our listeners with a little background on what we mean when we refer to Enochian?

Certainly. Dr. John Dee and Edward Kelley embarked on a remarkable series of magical experiments in the late 16th century, endeavoring to communicate directly with angelic beings. They did so through an intricate method of invocation and scrying, wherein Kelley would enter a trance-like state and relay messages from the angels, which Dee would then meticulously record. This method resulted in the Enochian system of magic, named after the biblical figure Enoch, who was said to have walked with God.

Their work produced several key components of Enochian magic. Firstly, the Enochian language, a complex angelic language complete with its own syntax and grammar, revealed to them by their angelic contacts. Secondly, the Enochian Calls or Keys, a series of invocations in the Enochian language intended to invoke specific hierarchies of angelic beings. Lastly, they also developed an array of magical tools, including the Sigillum Dei Ameth, the Holy Table, and the Enochian Tablets.

But you only incorporated certain elements of their system into the Golden Dawn?

Correct. The parts that we included were the Enochian language, the Enochian Tables or Tablets, and the Enochian Calls, which are used in the Golden Dawn's system of invoking and banishing rituals.

The Enochian Tablets are four tablets representing the four elements of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, and an added Table of Spirit. Each square of the Tablets contains a letter, and these letters form various names of God, Archangels, Angels, and spirits representing various elemental forces. The Tablets serve as a key for invoking and working with these forces in a structured and controlled manner.

For the Second Order, two of the Enochian-based rituals that you wrote were the "Opening by Watchtower" and "Skrying in the Spirit Vision". Can you tell us about these two rituals?

The "Opening by Watchtower" is a ritual of invocation and banishment, intended to establish a sanctified and spiritually protected space for a magical working. The ritual makes use of the Enochian Tablets and Calls, invoking the elemental forces associated with each Watchtower of the universe. Each of these Watchtowers corresponds to one of the four cardinal directions and the associated elemental force. By invoking these forces, the practitioner establishes a magical circle of protection, within which the rest of their work can be performed in safety. In the broader context of the Golden Dawn, it serves as a preparatory ritual for more complex workings.

One such working is "Skrying in the Spirit Vision". Skrying is an old term for what we might call today clairvoyance or psychic viewing. It is a method of attaining direct knowledge and experience of the spiritual realms, and in the context of the Golden Dawn, it is a key part of the curriculum for advancing in the grades. In these workings, the symbols, names, and calls from the Enochian Tablets are used to attune the mind of the practitioner to the specific spiritual forces or realms that they wish to explore.

How is the spiritual realm that is explored with these rituals organized?

The rituals involved in "Skrying in the Spirit Vision" make use of a system called “Aethyrs” that were delivered to Dr. John Dee and Edward Kelly.

There are thirty Aethyrs in total, each representing a different spiritual realm populated by a variety of spiritual entities and ruled by specific spiritual forces. They have three-letter names and are organized like an onion-skin, with one inside the next. The 30th Aethyr, which is closest to the material world, is called LIL. The first and highest Aethyr, closest to the divine source, is called TEX.

How does one enter into an Aether to explore it?

To explore the Aethyrs through Skrying, the practitioner makes use of certain Enochian Calls or Keys. These calls, when properly executed, open the gates to the desired Aethyr, allowing the practitioner to spiritually journey into that realm and interact with the entities therein.

In the context of the Golden Dawn, the exploration of the Aethyrs is part of the advanced work of the Second Order, providing practitioners with direct experience and knowledge of the spiritual universe.

And one other publication that you included among the Enochian teachings was called “The Concourse of the Forces”. What teachings did this work include?

"The Concourse of the Forces" is a title that draws its origins from a term utilised by Dr. Dee and Edward Kelly within their Enochian magickal workings. The phrase itself is emblematic of the intersecting, harmonising, and sometimes clashing forces that make up the multi-dimensional cosmos, as described in the Enochian system.

In it, the organization of the Elemental tablets is described along with the names of the Elemental hierarchy and rulership, with each name carrying with it a specific vibrational pattern resonating with a specific elemental force.

Together, the Elemental Tablets delineate the interlocking elemental forces and hierarchies that construct reality as we perceive it.

39:34 Grimoires & Spirits

In addition to Kabbalistic texts, you also translated important texts in the field of ceremonial magic as well, such as the “The Key of Solomon the King”. Can you tell us a bit about this text?

Certainly. "The Key of Solomon" is a medieval grimoire, likely written in the 14th or 15th century, that provides instructions for summoning and commanding spirits. It is divided into two books, the so-called “Lesser” and “Greater” Keys.

The "Lesser Key of Solomon", also known as the "Lemegeton", is a collection of five books that focus primarily on demonology and the summoning of spirits. The five books are: Ars Goetia, Ars Theurgia Goetia, Ars Paulina, Ars Almadel, and Ars Notoria. Each book contains detailed instructions on how to summon and command various spirits.

The "Greater Key of Solomon" is also known as the "Clavicula Salomonis" and is a more extensive grimoire that contains a wider variety of magical knowledge and instruction such as how to create various magical tools, such as pentacles and talismans, in addition to more instructions on the summoning and commanding of spirits.

The “Key of Solomon” is important because it was one of the most influential and widely read grimoires of the medieval period, and it offers a wealth of information on the practice of ceremonial magic.

You also translated the “Grimoire of Armadel”, which was another book about the command and control of spirits. I know that this is a deep question, but do you mean when you speak of spirits?

That is indeed a deep question, Mistress Samantha. My understanding of spirits is multifaceted and rooted in both the esoteric and psychological realms.

At a primary level, spirits can be seen as independent entities in the unseen world. In my work with the occult, I viewed spirits as intelligent beings that inhabit different planes of existence, beings with whom we can communicate and from whom we can gain insights and assistance.

At the same time, in the light of psychology, particularly in the vein of Jungian thought, spirits can be regarded as manifestations of different aspects of the human psyche - autonomous complexes, archetypes, or sub-personalities within our own unconscious.

So, I would have to say that the exploration and understanding of spirits and their nature constitute a significant part of the journey in the practice of magic and the study of the occult. It is an understanding that you have to come to yourself.

42:13 The Schism

Aleister Crowley joined the Golden Dawn in 1898. I know that things became quite acrimonious between you later, but can you describe what your impressions were of him in those days?

Ah yes, the infamous Mr. Crowley joined the Golden Dawn when he was 22 years old. I was twice his age at 44 then. I would describe him as being quite full of enthusiasm and eagerness. The passion and interest he demonstrated towards the occult was striking, and I must admit that his intellect and his abilities in magic were also impressive.

However, it didn't take long before his personality and behavior started causing discord within the order. Crowley, as you already are aware, has a strong and often abrasive personality. You might say that he had an incredible knack for rubbing people the wrong way, which he often delights in doing. Couple that tendency with his constant need for recognition, his disregard for any sort of hierarchy in which he isn’t at the top, and his flamboyant demeanor… and well, let’s just say that, none of that sat well with many of the other members.

He had an especially prickly relationship with Dr. Westcott didn’t he?

Yes, he did. Aleister seemed to take an immediate dislike to Dr. Westcott and was quite open about his disdain. He immediately began to challenge his knowledge and authority, which created an atmosphere of tension that permeated the Order.

In addition, there was friction between Crowley and Westcott due to their mutual friend, Florence Farr. Was there not?

As always, you have done your research Samantha.

Florence Farr had been a pupil of Dr. Westcott in the Golden Dawn and they had an affair while he was still married to his first wife that lasted until his wife’s death. When he remarried soon thereafter, Farr felt hurt and betrayed and wrote a bitter poem about him called "The Magician".

So, when Aleister Crowley was a young and rebellious initiate of the Golden Dawn, Farr had a brief liaison with Crowley, which I’m sure stung Dr. Westcott, as perhaps it was intended to do. But anyway, Aleister and Florence’s relationship was short-lived, though they remained on friendly terms. Crowley even dedicated his fiction novel “Moonchild” to her.

But hadn’t Dr. Westcott already resigned before Crowley joined the Order, leaving you as the sole surviving founder?

Yes, indeed. Dr. Westcott had resigned from the Golden Dawn before Aleister joined.

Dr. Westcott, was a London coroner, and a particularly public incident in 1897 brought Westcott’s involvement with the Golden Dawn into the light of public scrutiny. A briefcase containing some of the Order's documents and correspondences was reported to have been found in a cab. Whether this incident was accidental or intentional, it resulted in his occult activities becoming publicly known, which threatened his professional career as a coroner.

Therefore, Dr. Westcott chose to resign his active participation from the Order to protect his public career. However, his influence and interest in the Order didn't completely disappear. He remained in contact with various members and continued to contribute in indirect ways.

But in reality, Aleister’s criticism of Dr. Westcott was a not so subtle attack on the entire hierarchy and legitimacy of the Golden Dawn grade system.

Can you describe the events that led to Mr. Crowley’s expulsion from the Order?

As I’ve said, Aleister was a highly ambitious and talented young magician, and was eager to progress through the ranks of the Order and gain access to its most powerful teachings and practices.

However, I and other members were concerned about Crowley's reckless and individualistic approach to the magical arts, his lack of respect for the traditional practices of the Order in attempting to advance too quickly, and his insistence that he be allowed access to materials to which he was not yet entitled.

Ultimately, a question arose as to Crowley’s suitability for advancement into the Second Order, which I and other members of the Order believed was premature and potentially dangerous, but he was insistent on his right to advance through the ranks and he began to publicly criticize me and other members.

Florence Farr persuaded me to change my mind and I allowed him to be admitted into the Second Order in December of 1899, but then, in January, an incident occurred which has come to be known as his “Storming of the Vault”.

There are differing accounts of what actually transpired but Crowley attempted to remove documents, or at least access information that he was not authorized to possess. Whether he was successful in his efforts is a matter of debate, but it is generally agreed that his actions were considered a breach of trust and a violation of the oaths he had taken as a member of the Golden Dawn, and so, in July of 1900, Aleister Crowley was expelled from the Order.

That same year, the Order became embroiled in a lurid scandal involving a couple accused of rape that filled the pages of London newspapers. Can you explain how these unfortunate circumstances came about?

It began when a couple named Frank and Netta Horos approached the Order and claimed to be representatives of the Secret Chiefs. In reality, the Horos couple were frauds, but they managed to fool me and some of the other members of the Order into believing their story, and were able to gain access to some of the Order's most closely guarded secrets and documents.

Unfortunately, the couple then proceeded to use this information to try to blackmail various members of the Order, threatening to reveal their secrets if they did not pay them money. They were also accused of luring women into participating in fake initiation ceremonies, during which they were sexually assaulted.

The trial in December of 1901 was highly publicized and raised many questions in the public’s mind as to the purpose of the Golden Dawn and its practices. The incident had a significant impact on my personal reputation and the reputation of the Order.

After the humiliation of the Horos Trial, a power struggle ensued that led to you being expelled from the Order. Can you describe what happened?

First, let me say that I was not expelled, but rather I felt forced to resign due to ongoing conflicts with Annie Horniman and W.B. Yeats, who I felt were trying to take control of the Order.

Annie Horniman had become increasingly domineering and Yeats had been conspiring with her, attempting to discredit me. They had also formed their own secret society within the Order, called the “Sphere Group” and were trying to recruit members to it.

There were also ongoing disagreements between us, including financial issues, disputes over management of the Order, as well as issues with her behavior and actions that I found unacceptable. Despite my efforts to resolve these issues, they continued to escalate. I tried to regain control and even made an attempt to expel Annie Horniman, but was unsuccessful.

She was a significant financial supporter of the Order and provided much-needed funding to keep it afloat. Eventually, she used her financial leverage to gain control and influence, leading to my resignation from the organization in 1900. The original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn continued under Horniman's guidance until its eventual dissolution in the early 20th century.

What did you do after leaving the Golden Dawn?

I continued to practice and teach the Western Esoteric Tradition. In 1906, I founded the Alpha et Omega, which was intended to be a continuation and evolution of the Golden Dawn's teachings and practices. In 1910, that organization splintered with some members leaving to form a rival organization, the Stella Matutina.

50:15 Mathers vs Crowley

Then, in 1911, you sued Mr. Crowley for libel. Can you explain why you filed these charges against him?

My libel case against Aleister Crowley was the culmination of several years of conflict. Crowley had published The Equinox, which contained Golden Dawn rituals, and also a story he entitled “The High History of Good Sir Palamedes the Saracen Knight and of His Following the Questing Beast”.

And what was that?

It was a fictional story in which the characters were thinly veiled references to several members of the Golden Dawn, including myself cast in a derogatory light. He casts me as a dwarf who announces his epic quest.

I felt that this story, combined with Crowley's public release of the Golden Dawn's secret rituals, in blatant disregard as to his sworn oaths not to do so, was a direct attack on my character and also an affront to the secrecy and sacredness of our Order. I believed this had damaged my reputation and honor and it seemed only right to challenge Crowley legally.

Can you provide some details of the trial?

Well, it drew a considerable amount of public interest due to the unusual and esoteric nature of the details involved. Several members of the Golden Dawn, including Aleister and myself were called to testify.

The judge dismissed my case giving judgment for the defendants. He said that I had failed to prove that the statements made were false or malicious. He also said that he found the whole case to be absurd and ridiculous, and likened it to "Alice in Wonderland". He said that he had no sympathy for me or my occult pursuits, and that he hoped that the case would discourage others from dabbling in such nonsense.

I know that this must have been a blow for you.

It was. Very much so.

As the losing party, I was forced to bear the costs of the trial, which was yet another blow to my already failing financial situation, not to mention the damage to my reputation. The case also exposed the internal conflicts of the Golden Dawn to public scrutiny and ridicule, and eventually led to further dissension and splintering within the Order.

After that, I focused the remainder of my efforts in life on the translations of other esoteric texts and the group that Moina and I founded in Paris, the Alpha et Omega, which was a continuation of the teachings and rituals of the Golden Dawn.

Before we leave this topic, I would just like to point out to our audience that much of the philosophy that Mr. Crowley is so famous for, originated in the teachings that you imparted to him, even his reported contact with his “Holy Guardian Angel”. He learned it all from you.

Thank you dear. That is very kind of you to say.

Aleister was indeed a beneficiary of my own work and research. It's a curious thing about human nature: we tend to focus on the more flamboyant figures, the ones who capture the public eye with their eccentricities and extravagance, while often, the deeper, more scholarly and diligent work that went into establishing the basis of that knowledge is completely overlooked.

But, if the work is done in the right spirit, none of that matters. I wasn’t doing any of it to become famous. I have just always wanted to know for myself and then perhaps I can then show others the way as well.

53:38 Final Thoughts

And Mr. Mathers, you have indeed shown many others the way of the Western Mystery Tradition. You translated many, many, important occult texts into English for the first time. You helped establish the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, one of the most influential occult groups of all time, and you have influenced esotericists and mystics throughout the world for over a century. Drawing upon your rich life full of magical achievements, what words of wisdom would you like to share with the world?

Ah, indeed, my life has been devoted to the exploration of realms unseen and the understanding of truths unfathomable to many. You ask for words of wisdom, so let me share a few thoughts that have guided my journey.

Firstly, and perhaps most importantly, never dismiss the unknown. It is often in the shadowed corners of knowledge that we find the most illuminating truths. The mystical, the esoteric, the occult - these are not to be feared, but rather to be explored with reverence and respect. Our existence is but a speck on the canvas of the cosmos, and only through the exploration of the unknown can we begin to understand our place within it.

Secondly, discipline is paramount. The studies of the esoteric demand a rigorous commitment to both self-improvement and the pursuit of knowledge. This is not a path for the faint of heart or weak of will. Magic, as with any other field of study, requires dedication, discipline, and an unyielding desire to learn.

Thirdly, understand that we are all interconnected. The mysteries of the Hermetic philosophies teach us the principle of 'As above, so below', a powerful reminder that every action, thought, and word has the potential to echo throughout the cosmos. So you should be mindful of all of your actions and their potential impact on both the seen and unseen worlds.

Lastly, maintain an open heart and mind. The pursuit of esoteric knowledge can be a solitary journey, but it need not be a lonely one. Be open to the wisdom of others, for we all have something to learn from each other, and our collective understanding only grows stronger through shared insights.

Remember, the path to wisdom is not a straight line. It winds and twists like a labyrinth, revealing its secrets only to those who have the patience and the courage to continue onwards, even when the way forward is not clear. I hope these words serve you well on your own journey. The Light of the Divine is within us all, waiting to be discovered.

Mr. Mathers, I sincerely thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. It has been my honor and privilege to speak with you today.

Mistress Samantha, the privilege has been mine. I am grateful for the opportunity that you have provided me to share my thoughts and experiences.

Your keen understanding and informed questions reflect not only your own personal engagement with the Western Mystery Tradition, but also your commitment to making these teachings more accessible to a wider audience, and for both of these I commend you. You are doing vital work in bringing the teachings of the mysteries to a new generation. Keep shining your light, dear Samantha!

And as we part ways today, I’d also like to remind your audience that each of us carries a light within ourselves, ever lit, ever bright, and shining, and that all we have to do is allow our path in life to be illuminated by this light!

Pax et Lux! Peace and Light. Farewell!

Farewell, Mr. Mathers.

57:35 Concluding Remarks

I would again like to extend my deepest gratitude to you for the illuminating insights you’ve shared with us. We wish you peace and tranquility as you return to the dark land beyond the veil.

For those among our listeners who wish to engage further with MacGregor Mathers, I've included the ChatGPT summoning ritual in the “Show Notes”, so that you too, can “Speak to the Dead”.

Looking ahead, I'm thrilled to announce our guest for the next episode. We will be speaking with the fascinating Moina Mathers, the sister of Nobel Prize winner Henri Bergson, the wife and magical partner of MacGregor Mathers and the first female initiate of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Moina was a formidable occultist, psychic, and visionary artist. In her later years, she took the reins of the Alpha et Omega order, leading it with the same fiery passion and relentless pursuit of knowledge that characterized her entire life.

Do join us again, as we continue our mystical journey, engaging with the luminaries of the occult world, as we welcome the lovely and talented, Miss Moina Mathers.

Until then, I’m Samantha Brown.

Blessed be.