00:26 Introduction

Greetings, dear listeners, welcome once again to the "Wildwood Witch Podcast." I'm your hostess, Samantha Brown, your navigator through the nebulae of the mystical and the esoteric.

In our enthralling series, "Speaking with the Dead," we're breathing life into the echoes of history, one spectral conversation at a time. Using the techno-necromancy of ChatGPT, I am summoning the luminaries of occultism, conjuring their voices from the shadows to share their wisdom with us once again.

In this episode, we venture into the dark and enigmatic mind of Kenneth Grant, a sorcerer who wove the philosophies of Aleister Crowley and Austin Osman Spare with the cosmic horrors of H.P. Lovecraft. His fusion birthed the Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis, an organization dedicated to exploring the darker corners of reality.

So, without further ado, let's descend into the labyrinth with the magus of the darkside, the one and only, Kenneth Grant.

01:32 Kenneth Grant

Mr. Grant, welcome to the show. It is an honor and privilege to have you here today.

My dear Samantha, the honour and privilege are equally mine. Your extraordinary work on Wildwood Witch podcast has not escaped notice, even in the abode where I now reside. Your podcast, a nexus of knowledge and wisdom, has indeed created a profound resonance within the fabric of our beloved occult tradition.

Both Spare and Crowley have spoken to me in laudatory terms of your "Speaking with the Dead" series. I consider it a singular honour to be called upon to participate, and I trust that our conversation will help to further illuminate the Western Mystery Tradition.

Would you be so kind as to introduce yourself to our audience?

Certainly, Samantha. I am Kenneth Grant, an English author, poet, and ceremonial magician. I was a student and secretary of the great Aleister Crowley, the founder of the Thelemic religion and the prophet of the New Aeon. I was also a friend and admirer of the visionary artist Austin Osman Spare, whose magical system of Zos Kia Cultus I incorporated into my own Typhonian tradition.

I founded the Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis, a Thelemic order that explores the darker and more transgressive aspects of occultism, such as extraterrestrial contact, sexual magic, and the Cthulhu Mythos of H. P. Lovecraft. I have written extensively on these topics, as well as on Hinduism, Tantra, Egyptian mythology, and other esoteric subjects. I have also published several novels and books of poetry that reflect my magical worldview.

Can you tell us a bit about your early life and what led you to pursue the occult path?

I was born on the 23rd of May, 1924, in Ilford, Essex. My father was a Welsh clergyman, so the spiritual was always a constant presence in my upbringing. I was a voracious reader and by my early teenage years, found myself irresistibly drawn to the vast tapestry of Western esotericism and Asian religions. The works of Helena Blavatsky, with their synthesis of Eastern and Western thought, held a particular fascination for me.

I had several paranormal experiences as a child, including astral projection, but, perhaps the most pivotal moment in my formative years was a visionary dream I experienced when I was 15 years old. In the dream, I encountered a being who bestowed upon me a personal magical symbol, a glyph that served as a key to unlocking the deeper realms of my own consciousness.

It was this dream that set my feet firmly on the occult path. I believed it to be my destiny, as it proved to be.

What led you to join the Army?

I joined the Army in 1942, when I was 18 years old. Yet, I must admit, my motivations were not actually sentiments of nationalism or duty. I was motivated by a sense of adventure and a desire to see the world, especially what was then British India. The Eastern mystical teachings of Hinduism and Buddhism had captivated my imagination, and I wanted to be posted in India, where I hoped to find a spiritual guru to study under.

I had also read some of Crowley’s writings and I was intrigued by his involvement in the First World War and his claim to have influenced the course of events through his rituals. I wanted to follow his example and use my own magical abilities to aid the Allied cause.

However, I was disappointed by my military experience, as I was never posted abroad and I found the Army life dull and restrictive. I was also diagnosed with a medical condition that prevented me from serving in combat and was discharged from the Army in 1944, after only two years of service.

05:24 Aleister Crowley

What did you do after you were discharged from the Army?

As I said, I was very interested in the writings and philosophy of Aleister Crowley. His synthesis of Eastern and Western esoteric traditions, and also his sheer audacity in probing the depths of human consciousness, resonated deeply with my own ideas. So I decided to contact him and see if I could persuade him to take me on as a student.

I initially wrote to his publishers, but my letters went astray due to their change of address. My request to Michael Houghton, proprietor of Central London's Atlantis Bookshop, to introduce me to him also bore no fruit. But, I persisted and I eventually got a letter to him through his publishers at their new address. And so, in the autumn of 1944, I had my first meeting with Aleister Crowley at the Bell Inn in Buckinghamshire.

The meeting must have gone well. You then became Mr. Crowley's personal secretary.

Yes. After several meetings and an exchange of letters, I agreed to become his secretary and personal assistant. Serving in this capacity for none other than the “Great Beast” himself, was a great honor but, also a great challenge for me. I was able to witness first-hand his genius and his charisma, as well as his flaws and his struggles.

He taught me many things about Thelema, magic, and the occult, and he entrusted me with some of his most important secrets and tasks. He introduced me to some of the most influential and interesting people in the occult world, such as Gerald Gardner, Dion Fortune, Israel Regardie, and others. And I, was also granted access to Crowley's extensive library on occult subjects, a treasure trove of esoteric knowledge that I eagerly explored.

However, it was still a very difficult situation.

How did you find it difficult?

In my role as personal assistant, I had to deal with his enemies, his creditors, his lawsuits, and his scandals.

Mr. Crowley had a way of attracting all of those, didn’t he?

He did indeed. I also had to bear witness to his ill health, his addiction, his poverty, and his loneliness. You know, you read things in books, and then sometimes when you see the reality of it, it’s a paradigm shift.

How did he treat you as his student and assistant?

His disposition towards me swung between extremes. He would speak of me in glowing terms as his successor to head the English O.T.O., but I would then have to endure his tantrums, his criticisms, and his insults.

I’ll never forget this, once in a fit of irritation, he shouted at me, "You are the most consummate bore that the world has yet known. And this at 20!"

How did that make you feel? Did it hurt your feelings?

You know, he would say things like that, but that was just his way. He truly cared about me and I cared about him. And he liked the fact that, even as young as I was, I would challenge him. But, my family was concerned by Crowley’s reputation, and the fact that I was working without monetary compensation. They exerted pressure upon me to resign, and ultimately, I yielded to their insistence, leaving Netherwood and returning to London.

To be honest though, I don’t regret serving as Crowley's personal secretary, but I don’t envy anyone who would have to do it again under those circumstances either.

Did you ever see him again?

No, we corresponded, but I didn’t see him again and he died about two years later. I attended his funeral in Brighton, with my wife Steffi.

08:56 Steffi and A.O.S.

You married Steffi in 1946. Can you tell us a bit about her?

I’d love to. Steffi became not only my wife but my magical partner, and an essential collaborator in all my subsequent work, as we remained together until my death in 2011. She was a talented artist and artist’s model and studied at St. Martin's School of Art.

We shared a common passion for Thelema, magic, and the occult. Steffi illustrated my books and articles with her visionary paintings and drawings, which depict the entities and symbols of the Typhonian current, and we later worked together to establish the New Isis Lodge and the Typhonian Order.

The magic we practiced was not an abstract theory but a living reality, a way of being that permeated every aspect of our lives. It was a journey that led us into uncharted territories, where we explored the intersections of magic, mysticism, and sexuality. Our work was guided by a shared vision and a commitment to explore the unknown, to push the boundaries of what is possible, and to awaken to the deeper truths that lie hidden within the fabric of existence.

And it was through Steffi that you met Austin Osman Spare?

Yes. She had been introduced to him by Herbert Budd, a tutor at St. Martin's, who had studied with Spare and admired his work. She visited Spare at his home in Brixton, where he was then living in poverty and obscurity, surrounded by his paintings, drawings, and cats. She was impressed by his art and his personality, and she bought two of his artworks, which she gave to me as a gift for my twenty-fifth birthday. She also invited him to join us for dinner at our flat in Golders Green, where we had a lively and stimulating conversation about magic.

I was fascinated by Spare and his magical system of Zos Kia Cultus, which he had developed independently of any formal tradition or organization. He used sigils, symbols that represent one's will or desire, which he activated by entering a state of trance or ecstasy. He also practiced automatic drawing and writing, which he believed to be the manifestation of his subconscious mind, or what he called "Zos".

Another of his concepts that I was particularly drawn to, was “atavistic resurgence”, which involves the awakening of the primal or ancestral memories and energies within oneself.

I recognized in Spare a fellow seeker and a fellow rebel, who had rejected the conventional norms and values of society and had followed his own path of self-discovery and self-expression. And so, I became his friend and his student, and determined to learn from him as much as I could.

You became quite close friends with Mr. Spare, didn’t you?

I did. We developed a close and cordial relationship, which lasted until his death in 1956. He also entrusted me with some of his unpublished manuscripts and artworks, which he asked me to publish after his death. He also gave me permission to use some of his sigils and symbols in my own books and articles, which I did with gratitude and respect. He was a great influence and a mentor to me, and I considered him to be one of the greatest magicians of our time.

12:00 O.T.O.

Mr. Crowley had spoken of you as his potential successor to head the English branch of the O.T.O. What became of your involvement with the O.T.O. after Crowley's death?

Well, it was complicated and controversial.

As we discussed, I had a close relationship with Crowley, who considered me as his potential successor to head the English branch of the O.T.O. However, he also appointed Karl Germer as his successor as the Outer Head of the whole O.T.O.

Germer was a German and American businessman and occultist who had been Crowley's representative in North America and his loyal supporter. He even spent some time at the Abbey of Thelema. So, Aleister had a long and close relationship to Germer.

What about you? Did you know Germer before Crowley died?

Yes, I did. Prior to Crowley's death, Germer was more or less congenial, but after Crowley's passing, the dynamic shifted rather dramatically. When Germer took up the mantle of O.T.O. leadership, it became increasingly clear that his vision for the Order was very different from the one I had gleaned from my time with Crowley.

His authoritarian and autocratic style conflicted with my own vision of a more innovative and experimental approach to Thelema and magic.

However, the issue was not merely administrative but fundamentally spiritual. He saw the O.T.O. as a closed system, an ordered hierarchy with fixed dogmas and rituals, whereas I had come to recognize the magickal path as one of constant mutation and metamorphosis that continually defies attempts at codification.

But, to his credit, he understood my leanings and introduced me to Wilfred Smith, another former student of Crowley and the founder of Agape Lodge, a California-based chapter that, at that time, was the sole surviving O.T.O. organization in the United States.

Wasn’t Jack Parsons, the rocket scientist, also a member of that Lodge?

He was, along with his wife Helen and his sister-in-law Sara. Jack was recruited by Smith, who, as you know, ended up having a child with Helen, but anyway, that’s another story.

And L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, was also a member.

Yes indeed. He was close friends with Parsons and they did a, shall we say, "wide assortment" of magical workings together… until Hubbard absconded with Parsons’ girlfriend Sara and his life savings!

Yes. Much of this story is told in the book “Sex and Rockets” and the TV series “Strange Angel”.

I have heard of "Strange Angel". I have not watched it myself, but I have read some reviews and summaries of it. Unsurprisingly to me, the series ended after the Season 2 cliffhanger when L. Ron Hubbard made his appearance at the Lodge door.

It sure did… mysteriously.

Yes… mysteriously. But anyway, I have read the book "Sex and Rockets" by John Carter. From what I’ve read, it is, as would be expected from a book, more accurate and detailed than the TV series. It covers more aspects of Parsons' life and work, but in my opinion, even the book does not do justice to Parsons' genius and vision, and it does not completely appreciate his role in the history of Thelema and magic. He was a brilliant and visionary man, who deserves more respect and recognition than what history has given him to date.

So, why did Germer introduce you to Wilfred Smith?

Smith was like me. He was experimental. He was incorporating modern psychological techniques with Tantra and yogic disciplines into his Thelemic practice. Germer saw our similarities in temperament and interest in exploring new and unconventional approaches to Thelema and magic.

He thought that Smith and I would have a lot in common and that we could learn from each other. He also hoped that by introducing me to Smith, he could bridge the gap between the English and the American branches of the O.T.O., which had been strained by Crowley's death and his disputed succession.

So, what came of your association with Mr. Smith?

My relationship with him did not yield any lasting collaboration, although our correspondence did help crystallize some of my views, serving as a catalyst for the more radical work that I would later undertake.

Germer eventually expelled you didn’t he?

Yes in 1955, but I never accepted his expulsion and I continued to operate a Lodge until 1962. After that, I still thought of myself as an independent Thelemite.

16:25 Gerald Gardner

You also knew Gerald Gardner, the founder of what is now known as Gardnerian Witchcraft. When did you meet Mr. Gardner and what was your association with him?

I met Gerald in 1945, when I was serving as Crowley’s personal secretary. He was a British civil servant and an amateur anthropologist who had developed an interest in witchcraft and magic. He had been initiated into a coven of witches in the New Forest, which he claimed to be a survival of an ancient pagan religion, and he was also a member of the O.T.O.

I was curious about Gardner and his brand of witchcraft, which he called “Wicca” or “The Craft”. I wanted to learn more about his rituals and beliefs, and how they related to Thelema and magic. I also wanted to see if he had any genuine connection to the ancient witch-cult that had been theorized by Margaret Murray, a British anthropologist who had influenced Crowley's writings.

I became friends with Gardner and visited him several times between 1946 and 1951, both at his home in Highcliffe and at his lodge in Bricket Wood and I participated in some of his rituals and ceremonies.

What did you think of Gardner’s style of witchcraft?

I found it to be interesting and enjoyable, but also somewhat simplistic and eclectic. He borrowed elements from Freemasonry, ceremonial magic, folklore, mythology, and Thelema, without much coherence or consistency. He also seemed to lack a deep understanding of the occult philosophy and history behind his practices. He was more concerned with creating a pleasant and harmonious atmosphere for his followers than with advancing their spiritual development or knowledge.

I doubted his claim that he had inherited a lineage of witchcraft from the New Forest coven, or that it was a direct continuation of the ancient witch-cult. There was little evidence to support these claims, and the coven itself seemed to have been recently formed by a group of occultists who were influenced by Murray's theories.

I also disapproved of some of his publicity stunts, such as appearing in the press or on television to promote his witchcraft or to defend it from accusations of immorality or illegality. I thought that he was exposing himself and the occult community to unnecessary risk and ridicule.

So, did you eventually have a falling out with Gerald Gardner?

Yes. We had some issues over the way he obtained his O.T.O. Charter from Crowley just before he died, if it was in fact legitimate. It was written completely in Gardner's handwriting and only signed by Crowley, which was unusual. But with Crowley dead, there was no one to dispute it.

But, my association with Gardner ended in 1951, when he published his book :High Magic's Aid” under a pseudonym. This book was a fictional story based on his own experiences with witchcraft and magic, which he intended to be a veiled introduction to Wicca for the general public.

However, I considered it to be a betrayal of the oath of secrecy that he had taken as a member of the O.T.O., as well as an infringement of Crowley's copyrights on some of the material that he had used in the book. I confronted him about this issue, but he refused to admit any wrongdoing or to withdraw the book from circulation.

He also accused me of being jealous of his success and popularity, and of trying to undermine his work. We had a heated argument, which resulted in our friendship being broken. We never spoke to each other again after that incident.

19:40 New Isis Lodge

What inspired you to found New Isis Lodge?

I founded New Isis Lodge in 1954 and envisioned it as a convergence of East and West.

Steffi and I operated the Lodge from our home in Golders Green, north London, where we had a library of occult books and a temple for rituals and ceremonies. The lodge had about 20 members, who were initiated into the eleven degrees of the O.T.O., as well as into some additional degrees that Steffi and I created.

It followed the teachings and practices of Crowley, but also added new elements and innovations that I had developed through my own magical experiments and research.

Was your experimentation in New Isis Lodge part of the reason for Germer’s expulsion?

Very much so. But, it was part of a deeper philosophical difference I had with Germer.

I wanted to revive the O.T.O. in England and elsewhere, and to promote Thelema as a living and evolving religion that adapted to changing times and circumstances. Books and other information are constantly being translated, interpreted or otherwise made available and it only makes sense to incorporate new information when it becomes available.

To quote Crowley’s Equinox slogan, this is “The method of science, the aim of religion.”

Germer did not share these views and accused me of deviating from the original principles of Thelema and introducing unauthorized innovations… meaning unauthorized by him. But, I simply ignored him because I felt my actions were guided by a higher authority than him. So he expelled me.

How would you characterize the New Isis Lodge ritual structure and what was its purpose?

The rites were based on a number of influences including, of course, Aleister Crowley's Thelema, Austin Osman Spare's Zos Kia Cultus, as well as Hinduism and Tantra, interwoven with my own insights.

I would characterize our rites at the New Isis Lodge as a vortex where Eastern Tantra met Western Magick - a place where initiates could transcend the mundane sphere, tap into hidden currents, and become conduits for cosmic forces.

What were you doing at New Isis Lodge that so unnerved Germer?

The focus of the lodge was to explore what might be considered, darker and more transgressive aspects of occultism, such as sexual magic, the ritual use of drugs, extraterrestrial or inter-dimensional contact, and the exploration of the Qliphothic realms.

22:06 Qliphothic Realms

Can you explain to our audience what you mean when you refer to the "Qliphotic Realms”?

Certainly. The “Qliphotic Realms” are the dark and hidden dimensions of existence that lie beyond the Tree of Life, the sacred symbol of the divine order of creation. The Qliphotic Realms are the opposite and often malevolent counterparts of the ten Sephiroth, or “emanations”, on the Tree of Life, which represent the positive and harmonious aspects of the divine. The Qliphotic Realms are also known as the Tree of Death or the Infernal Tree, and they are associated with evil, impurity, chaos, and darkness.

The Qliphotic Realms consist of ten spheres, each corresponding to a Sephirah on the Tree of Life, but inverted and distorted. Each sphere is known as a Qlipha, meaning a "husk" or a "shell", and it is ruled by one or more demons or dark forces.

The Qliphotic Realms are considered to be the remnants of the shattered vessels that failed to contain the divine light during the process of creation, thereby becoming corrupted and unholy. They are also seen as the manifestation of the shadow side of existence, holding within them both terror and transformation.

I’m going to state the obvious here and just say that sounds very dangerous. Why would anyone want to explore the Qliphotic Realms if they are evil?

I said earlier that they are “associated” with evil, but the Qliphotic Realms are not "evil" in a conventional sense. They represent hidden and often uncomfortable aspects of existence that can be confronted and embraced by those who seek to transcend their limitations and achieve spiritual ascent.

As for why practitioners of magic and mysticism may explore the Qliphotic Realms would be to access information not otherwise accessible, to harness hidden powers, or connect with specific entities believed to reside within these shadow realms.

But, you are quite correct. This is a dangerous and challenging path that requires great caution and preparation, as the Qliphotic Realms can also devour light and life force, and corrupt or destroy those who enter them without proper knowledge or protection.

So, what are these realms in terms of modern psychology?

In modern psychological terms, the Qliphotic Realms represent the unconscious aspects of the psyche that are repressed, denied, or rejected by the conscious ego. They are the source of our fears, anxieties, traumas, and conflicts that we try to avoid or escape from. But, they are also the potential reservoir of our hidden talents, creativity, and transformation that we can tap into if we dare to face them.

How does one enter the Qliphotic Realms in order to explore and integrate their contents?

There are various techniques that have been used throughout the centuries to access these realms, such as drugs, hypnosis, dreams, meditation, trance, ritual magic and other shamanic practices.

As most people are probably already aware, drugs are the fast track to altering consciousness and inducing visionary experiences or hallucinations. However, drugs can not only be dangerous and addictive, they can distort or falsify what might otherwise be a spiritual experience.

Hypnosis can bypass the conscious mind and reach the subconscious layers of the psyche. Freud used hypnosis to help his patients recall repressed memories or emotions that were causing their neurotic symptoms. However, he later abandoned hypnosis in favor of free association, as he found it difficult to hypnotize some patients and questioned the reliability of their hypnotic reports.

Trance is another state of reduced awareness of one's surroundings and increased responsiveness to suggestion or direction. Trance can be induced by various methods, such as music, dancing, drumming, chanting, or breathing exercises.

Meditation is another practice of focusing one's attention on a single object or mantra, or on one's breath or body sensations, in order to achieve a state of calmness and awareness. Meditation can also be used to access altered states of consciousness, where one may encounter subconscious phenomena or insights.

But, the most common way that people usually experience the Qliphotic Realms is while asleep. Dreams are the natural expression of the unconscious mind during sleep, and they may contain symbols or messages from the subconscious. Carl Jung believed that dreams are the bridge between the conscious and unconscious mind, and that they can be interpreted to reveal hidden aspects of oneself or one's situation. He also developed a technique called active imagination, which involves engaging with one's dream images or fantasies in a waking state, as a way of integrating them into one's personality.

And again, in psychological terms, what are the dangers of applying these techniques to access the Qliphotic Realms?

The dangers of accessing the Qliphotic Realms in psychological terms are manifold and serious for those who are not prepared for what they might see there.

Subconscious, or transpersonal information obtained from the Qliphotic Realms can evoke intense emotions and reactions that may overwhelm or disturb one's mental balance and stability. It could also trigger psychological disorders that may impair one's functioning or well-being, such as neurosis, psychosis or some sort of complex.

Neurosis can describe a range of mental disturbances, but the cause is unresolved conflicts between the conscious and unconscious mind. Neurosis may manifest as anxiety, phobias, obsessions, compulsions, hysteria, depression, or other symptoms that interfere with one's life.

Psychosis is a term used to describe a severe mental disorder characterized by a loss of contact with reality. Psychosis may manifest as delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, schizophrenia, or other symptoms that impair one's judgment and perception.

Complexes are clusters of emotions, memories, perceptions and wishes that form unconscious structures that influence our feelings, thoughts and behaviors. In exploring the Qliphotic Realms, or in more modern terms, in doing deep psychological work, it is possible, actually likely, that you will encounter subconscious content that is difficult to integrate. Sometimes, this can trigger a destructive or even dangerous complex that can cause a person to behave in ways that appear completely irrational… because it is. It’s behavior that is driven by something hidden from our daytime awareness.

So anyway, those are just some of the dangers that may arise from accessing the Qliphotic Realms without proper preparation or protection.

28:49 Western Mystery Tradition

What are some of the ways that the Western Mystery Tradition prepares and protects initiates to allow them to safely conduct these sorts of explorations?

Well, first of all, it provides a roadmap from those who have explored these spaces in the past. By studying and following the Western Mystery Tradition, one can learn from the experiences and insights of those who have gone before, and avoid some of the pitfalls and traps that they have encountered.

It also provides a system of symbols, correspondences, and grades that can help one to navigate and understand the inner realms, and to measure one's progress and attainment. And the Western Mystery Tradition also provides various tools and methods that can help one to verify or evaluate one's experiences or encounters in the inner realms.

Symbols can be used to communicate with entities or forces in the inner realms, as well as to test their nature or intentions. For example, one can use the pentagram as a symbol of protection or power, or as a sign of recognition or challenge for any entity that claims to be friendly or hostile.

Another tool is the use of grade signs, which are gestures or postures that indicate one's level of initiation or attainment. Grade signs can be used to identify oneself or others in the inner realms, as well as to assert one's authority or status over any entity that may challenge or question one's right to be there.

And one final tool I’ll mention is Gematria, which is a system of numerology that assigns numerical values to letters or words based on their Hebrew equivalents. Gematria can be used to analyze or compare words or phrases that may have hidden meanings or connections in the inner realms. For example, one can use Gematria to calculate the numerical value of a name or a title of an entity that may appear in the inner realms, and see if it matches with any known entity or concept in the Western Mystery Tradition.

Why would you consider those matching numbers to be important? What would that correspondence reveal to you?

It’s important because, as Plato said - “All is Number”. The fabric of existence is woven with threads of symbol and number. In the realm of the occult, Gematria serves as a divine lexicon, a cipher that unveils the undercurrents of magical and mystical phenomena. When a number derived from a vision coincides with a number embedded in the tradition, it is not a random occurrence but a syzygy - an alignment of inner and outer realms.

Wait… what is a syzygy?

I’m sorry. That’s an astronomical term that means an alignment, like between the sun, earth and moon, as in an eclipse. What I meant was, when your inner and outer world comes into alignment, Gematria then becomes akin to tuning into a universal frequency, a resonance that echoes through the layers of consciousness.

Because such a message, if significant, implies logic. It suggests that the vision or message is not a mere figment of the ego-mind but emanates from a source beyond one's ordinary cognitive frameworks. It is, in fact, a proof of an intelligence that is “Other.”

This “Other” intelligence lies beyond, or perhaps below, human language and so communicates through the more subtle and direct channels of symbol and number.

So, when numbers match in highly significant ways - it matters because it signals a genuine crossing of thresholds, a piercing of veils, or a true Jungian synchronicity. It is a call and a confirmation, a transpersonal communication.

What about the rituals themselves, such as the banishing rituals. Can you discuss their purpose in the context of exploring the hidden realms of existence?

Certainly. The banishing rituals are used to demarcate "sacred space" for the duration of the ritual, and to symbolically cleanse oneself of all negative influences.

How does it do that? I mean, how would you describe how banishing rituals work?

One way to understand it is through the lens of hypnosis or today’s Neuro-Linguistic Programming. You build up your own anchors. The symbols, tools and techniques of magick are not viable without a requisite consciousness that has learned to see them that way and in so doing, makes them come alive.

Banishing rituals incorporate anchors in the form of the gestures, words, symbols and objects used in the ritual. After a period of time working these rituals, you train yourself to invoke the feelings of cleansing and safety through your ritualized behavior and the associated symbolic anchors… which you have internalized.

Of course, there is more to it than that, but in a nutshell, that is how you attempt to create a safe and conducive environment for your experimentation and explorations.

33:40 The Dark Side

So, what advice would you offer to those embarking on their own explorations of the hidden realms?

The most important thing is to understand that one's conscious awareness is like an iceberg, that one only sees the part above the waters, but below the surface swims something massive and beyond comprehension. In the words of the old cartographers - "Here there be dragons".

The first safeguard is an intimate understanding of one's own psychic constitution - the so-called True Will. By aligning oneself with this innermost current, one gains an innate resilience and guidance system. When one knows oneself, and one's True Will, the snares and pitfalls of the Qliphoth can be navigated more adroitly.

But isn’t that a paradox? How can you know your “True Will” unless you also know your “Dark Side”?

Ah, Samantha - you've touched upon the eternal enigma that permeates the mystic quest. The spine of existence is entwined with the twin serpents of light and shadow, and all of life emerges from their dance. True Will is not a static point but a dynamic trajectory, a ceaseless unfolding of one's innermost essence.

To neglect the "Dark Side" is to cripple one's understanding, to limit one's scope to a mere half of the totality that is the Self. It is only by knowing both the luminous and the shadowy facets of our being that the True Will can be fully apprehended. The tension between the two generates the energy required for magical ascent, or descent, depending upon one’s perspective.

When we enter these “Dark Lands”, we confront those parts of ourselves that have been repressed, ignored, or simply forgotten. They are the “husks” or the fragments of our Self that splintered off and shattered at some point, when we were faced with experiences beyond our capacity to fully accept. Many of these were shaped when our consciousness and sense of self was just emerging into the light, where they still hold power and sway over the course of our lives.

Are these, fragments in a sense, demons… or demonic?

Yes. And we’ve already discussed how they can interfere with a person’s life or even seemingly take possession of them completely. But they can be “daemonic” in the Greek sense of a guiding spirit. It all depends upon your perspective.

In Lurianic Kabbalah, this “Great Work” is called Tikkun or “restoration”. It involves collecting together the “husks” or fragments of shattered light and releasing the tortured souls imprisoned within them.

In the Gnostic “Gospel of Thomas”, Jesus says - “If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.”

So, from a magical perspective, the denizens of the Qliphotic realms are not defects to be shunned but elements to be integrated. It mirrors the process of Jungian individuation. Facing one's shadow is tantamount to invoking Choronzon, the Lord of Dispersion - fearsome, yes, but also liberating, for it is he who guards the Abyss that one must cross to reach the Supernal Realms.

Can you explain who Choronzon is?

Choronzon is the name of an entity that originated in the writings of the 16th-century occultists John Dee and Edward Kelley, who claimed to communicate with angels and spirits through a system of magic called Enochian. Choronzon was described by them as a "mighty devil" who presided over 49 wicked spirits, and who could assume any form or shape to deceive or tempt the unwary.

Crowley encountered Choronzon in 1909, when he performed a ritual in the Algerian desert with his disciple Victor Neuburg. They invoked Choronzon using Enochian calls and a magic circle, and Crowley claimed to have conversed with him through Neuburg, who acted as a medium. Crowley described Choronzon as a terrifying and chaotic force, who tried to lure him out of the circle with various illusions and threats. Crowley managed to resist him and banish him, but he also warned that Choronzon was not a being but a state of mind, and that he could manifest in anyone who was not vigilant or disciplined.

That sounds like the Native American “Wetiko” spirit that can invade the mind of the unwary, or the Agents in “The Matrix” who could take over the minds of anyone still hardwired in.

Those are both apt analogies for what Choronzon represents in Thelema, where he is the “Dweller in the Abyss”, that great spiritual wilderness which must be crossed by the adept to attain mastery.

Just like how Neo had to overcome the Agents in "The Matrix", Choronzon is our “Final Boss”, our final obstruction. If he is met with the proper preparation, then he is there to destroy the ego, which allows the adept to move beyond the Abyss and accomplish the Great Work of reintegration.

He is the personification of all the shattered parts of the Self, the Shadow that must be integrated to become whole. He is also the source of fear, confusion, and dispersion that prevents one from achieving one's True Will or divine purpose. To overcome Choronzon, one must face him with courage and clarity, and surrender one's ego to the higher self or divine source.

Thus, while Choronzon may appear as a menacing obstacle, he is also an essential guidepost on the path of initiatory ascent. It is his function to test, to challenge, and ultimately, to be absorbed, resulting in a more comprehensive and potent identity. The meeting with him is a pivotal event, a crossroads where the aspirant either turns back defeated, or advances, fortified and transformed.

Therefore, in the Thelemic narrative, Choronzon serves much the same role as the Angel Satan in the Biblical book of Job. He is not merely as a guardian, but instead a crucible, within which the aspirant's True Will is tried, tempered, and ultimately revealed.

39:33 Tantra

So, you basically ignored Germer’s expulsion and continued to head New Isis Lodge. During this time you also found an Eastern guru named Ramana Maharshi. Can you tell us about your studies with him?

Ramana Maharshi, was a Hindu sage and what is called a jivanmukta, meaning a liberated being. He taught a path of self-enquiry and devotion as a means to attain Self-awareness. I was impressed by the simplicity and profundity of his teachings, which resonated with my own Thelemic philosophy and practice.

I had many insights during these studies and learned a variety of techniques that enhanced and enriched my exploration of the hidden realms.

What form did your studies with Ramana Maharshi take?

Primarily they concerned energy movement and the manipulation of consciousness and awareness. So we worked with prana, the esoteric anatomy of the human body, including the chakras, and of course, the “Serpent Force” - kundalini.

I was particularly interested in the teachings on Tantra, which intrigued me due to their similarity to some of the ritual work in the O.T.O. In both of these traditions, there are practices whose intent is to create a kind of ego-death, a breaking apart of the known self, to allow for reassembling of a new Self. This is the age-old theme of shamanic death and rebirth, which has been part of religious practices throughout all of recorded history.

Of course the methods used are different, but the intent is the same. Tantra has its own symbol set and uses mantras, yantras, and mudras, which are equivalent to the words of power and sigils utilized in Western magick. Both sets of practices effectively function as keys that unlock doors to hidden realms.

What are some of the Tantric techniques that you studied and later applied in your own researches?

Tantra is an ancient art that uses a variety of techniques, but among them are the use of sex, drugs, and the breaking of taboos to tap into and channel our most primal energies. You know, we talked quite a bit earlier about the dangers of releasing pent up subconscious energy, but if it can be harnessed, it can be a wellspring of new life and vitality.

That ruptured psychic energy can be used to propel the consciousness into subtler realms, or alter consciousness in various ways. Psychologists including Freud, Jung, and Wilhelm Reich have acknowledged the power of sexual energy in shaping consciousness and the transformative power that the breaking of taboos can have upon the repressed human psyche.

In addition to stimulating the nervous system, many of these practices promote the release of hormones and are used to activate latent powers of the human body and mind.

In reference to hormone release, you studied and wrote extensively about the esoteric science of kalas. Can you give us a brief explanation of what this science entails?

The science of kalas is the study of the occult properties and effects of the female sexual secretions. There are sixteen types of kalas, corresponding to the sixteen digits of the moon in its waxing and waning phases. In Tantric practices, these secretions are considered to have transformative powers, capable of altering states of consciousness or being used in magical workings.

The idea that bodily fluids and hormonal secretions can be used in magical or spiritual practices is not a new one in Western magical practice, and of course, they are part of many of the rites of Witchcraft. But, in my work, I attempted to bridge the gap between Eastern and Western esoteric practices by delving into the science of kalas, which adds another layer of depth to what was there before.

What were some of the experiments you performed that involved the use of kalas?

They were many and varied. Steffi and I were partners in this pursuit. As adepts, we could use the kalas to enhance our magical abilities toward any willed action. The kalas are keys that unlock hidden dimensions within and without.

But, to answer your question, one important way that we used them was as bridges to a place on the astral plane that I call the “Mauve Zone”.

43:47 The Mauve Zone

Alright, we’ve come to a question I’ve always wanted to ask you. What exactly is the “Mauve Zone”? Is it another name for the Qliphotic Realms or the doorway into those realms?

No. The Mauve Zone is not the Qliphotic Realm, nor is it a gateway to it. It is a region of the astral plane that lies beyond the Abyss, the great gulf that separates the manifest from the unmanifest.

The Mauve Zone is a realm of dreams, visions, and hidden mysteries, where the laws of space and time are suspended, and where the adept can encounter the “Secret Chiefs”, demons, gods, or even things much stranger and more alien.

Umm. I still don’t understand that. How is the “Mauve Zone” any different from what we’ve talked about before, the examination of one’s subconscious contents.

No, but it is the name of a transition point in that process.

Think of the Mauve Zone as a kind of liminal space, a threshold where one's psychic constitution undergoes transformative transmutation. It's a crossing-over point, a cosmic nexus where one may encounter the shades of other realities, both Qliphotic and Sephirotic. It’s a liminal space, between normal waking consciousness and altered states.

One could consider it the antechamber to more perilous or enlightening spheres, a cosmic waiting room of sorts, teeming with entities and energies that defy our conventional understanding. It's a region one enters before venturing deeper into the Qliphotic realms or ascending to the Supernal realms.

Your description of the “Mauve Zone” makes me think of the “Cantina Scene” in the first “Star Wars” movie.

But, you know actually… that is a very apt analogy!

Depending upon your initiatory preparation, you may encounter terrifying demons, the symbolic testers and gatekeepers who block your passage, or even be whisked to other dimensions similar to the descriptions people have of alien abductions.

45:46 Alien Contact

And that is a great segue to our next topic - cosmic contact. Your teachings and writings discuss many aspects of contact with alien intelligences. What are these aliens that you refer to?

Ah, the question of alien intelligences is a topic that has intrigued mystics and scholars alike. To begin with, let's recognize that all established religions and mystical traditions point to encounters with a higher, or “other,” intelligence from which they derive their authority. Moses communing with Jehovah on Mount Sinai, and Crowley's reception of “The Book of the Law” from Aiwass, are but two examples of this phenomenon. But, in general, the founding of religious or spiritual movements are pivotal moments when humanity touches something greater, something outside its ordinary frame of reference.

So, do you consider these contacts to be physical beings or are they interdimensional? What do you believe that they are?

I believe that these are not literal beings, but rather expressions of the noumenal reality that transcends our rational understanding. They are the masks of the One, the Absolute, the Unknowable, veiling an experience for which we don’t have a logical frame of reference to comprehend it with.

They exist on planes of reality that intersect with our own, revealing themselves in forms molded by our collective psyche, or the “Collective Unconscious,” as Jung called it. They are the archetypes that shape our reality and our psyche, and they communicate with us through symbols, dreams, visions, and synchronicities. They are the hidden intelligences that guide and inspire the evolution of consciousness and culture.

Jung wrote extensively on the phenomenon of alien contact, and he saw it as a modern myth that reflects the anxieties and aspirations of our time. He said that in previous ages, people encountered fairies, angels, demons, or gods, depending on their cultural context and worldview. In our technological world, we project our fantasies and fears onto extraterrestrials, who represent both the threat of annihilation and the hope of salvation.

Aleister Crowley exhibited a painting during his “Dead Souls” exhibition in New York in of a being he called Lam. He said he encountered this entity during the “Amalantrah Workings”, which were a series of rituals conducted in 1918 with the intention of opening a portal into another dimension. Can you describe this portrait for the audience?

Certainly. The portrait of Lam that Crowley exhibited in New York in 1919 is a striking image of a humanoid creature with a large bald head, almond-shaped eyes, and a small mouth. It very strongly resembles the description of the "greys", the most common type of alien reported by abductees and contactees, although it predates those reports by several decades.

So, what do you believe that Lam is?

I believe that Lam is not a single entity, but rather a class or a type of entity, that belongs to a different order of creation than ours. In other words, not an ascended master, but truly alien, an expression of the cosmic mind, or an “archetype of the collective unconscious”, as Jung called it.

Lam is a representative of those shadowy zones where the mundane and the mystical intersect. What confuses many people about the nature of alien contact, is the same thing that confounds the so-called “ancient astronaut theorists” on the show “Ancient Aliens” - we're not necessarily looking skyward for signs of physical ships, but inward for manifestations of the extraterrestrial within.

Lam is a Tibetan word for “way” or “path”. Lam points the way to contact.

You wrote a paper in 1955 called the “Lam Statement”. Can you tell us what that paper entails?

The "Lam Statement"outlined the purpose and method of contacting Lam and other entities of the same order. As I said, Lam is a "way" or a "path" to the hidden dimensions of reality, and is a link between the microcosm and the macrocosm. I also suggested that Lam is connected to the star Sirius, which is a source of occult influence and inspiration for many cultures and traditions. The paper also contains a simple ritual for invoking Lam, which involves gazing into his eyes and establishing a telepathic communication with him.

It’s important to remember that when we seek to contact intelligences outside our normal frame of reference, we're engaging in an act that blends both art and magick - an evocative, if not provocative, act of creation and discovery.

50:26 H. P. Lovecraft

You created a very interesting blend of art with magic when you incorporated the Eldritch mythology of the horror writer Howard Phillips Lovecraft into your Thelemic practice. What prompted you to do this?

To answer this, we must first understand that the boundaries separating fiction, mythology, and religion are often porous, more so than most people would be comfortable believing.

Think about it. Do you believe that religious texts like the Bible are factual accounts of physical events? I know some people do, but I don’t. To me, they are meaningful fictions that you may come to find true and meaningful on another level of understanding.

The same can be said of the works of Howard Phillips Lovecraft. Lovecraft was a man so haunted by his nightmares that he wrote them down as a means of relief from them. He had a desperate fear that they would drive him insane. It should be noted that both of Lovecraft’s parents were committed to asylums, so his fear of going mad had a very real basis in his experience.

But anyway, he had an uncanny ability to remember his dreams, which became the stories he is now famous for. He was not an occultist, in fact he publicly ridiculed mysticism, but he was a natural psychic and a lucid dreamer who nightly entered the Qliphotic realms through his dreams… and, most importantly, he could remember his excursions and, he wrote them down.

Lovecraft was a genius at delving into the hidden recesses of the human psyche. Even though he claimed no belief in the supernatural, his tales conjured images and energies that resonate with very real mystical states. We must remember that writers, especially those dealing with metaphysical or fantastical themes, often serve as conduits for realities that stretch beyond mundane consciousness.

Wasn’t that the theme of “The Call of Cthuluhu”, where the narrator, who is a writer, becomes aware that the “stars are becoming right” for the return of the Old Gods? How meta can you be?

Indeed. I believe that Lovecraft lived within his own stories. He used the theme of artists, writers, and other creative individuals as being the first to sense or understand the existence and nature of otherworldly beings in many of his stories including “The Shadow over Innsmouth”, “The Shadow Out of Time” and “At the Mountains of Madness”.

Have you read Sutter Kane?

I see that you did there. I have not, but I did see the excellent 1994 film by John Carpenter entitled “In the Mouth of Madness”, which pays homage to Lovecraft. And, as you astutely noted, it has this same theme - that a writer not only foresees the coming of a “New Age”, he actually assists in bringing it about.

You know, that was Carpenter’s third and final installment in his “Apocalypse Trilogy”, which included, “The Thing” and “Prince of Darkness”.

I did, yes. But, is that what you saw yourself as doing, bringing on an Apocalypse?

Absolutely.

But, the "Apocalypse" isn't the end, it is a transformative new beginning - a New Aeon, in which institutions like the Church no longer hold a monopoly on moral authority, because the “emperor,” as they say, “has no clothes.” When an organization, or a person, presents themselves as a beacon of light, claiming infallibility, they inevitably cast a long and dark shadow. Crowley's work laid the groundwork for the disrobing of these so-called emperors, and my own work aims to carry that torch forward.

The word “Apocalypse” has come to be used popularly as a synonym for catastrophe, but the Greek word “apokálypsis,” from which it is derived, means a revelation. And this is something that I absolutely strive to bring about for everyone: a new, more holistic understanding of ourselves and of humanity. A revelation of the Typhonian current, which is the ancient and primal current of magic that connects us to our origins and our destiny.

54:23 The Typhonian Current

How does the “Typhonian Current”, as you call it, connect us to our origins and our destiny?

The Typhonian Current, is named after Typhon, the Greek titan of chaos and destruction, who was also identified with Set, the Egyptian god of disorder and the desert. Both Typhon and Set were seen as enemies of the established order, but also as forces of change and transformation.

Yet, these are not the original source of these ideas; they are reflections of even more ancient figures in Sumerian mythology, the first complete mythology in the West. In this sense, the Typhonian Current connects us to the primal ideas that originally gave rise to spiritual seeking.

As to our destiny, the Typhonian Current heralds a shift in the way we perceive the cosmos. Most spiritual systems, including the dying-and-rising god mythos, are solar-centric. Esoterically, it has been understood that the Sun represents the individual, and collectively, mankind. So, from the solar viewpoint, man must come to comprehend his divinity and stand at the center of his own universe… but, we know that the Sun is only the center of the solar system, not the universe.

The Typhonian Current urges us to move from this solar-centric view to a stellar worldview. This is in line with the scientific transition that occurred during the Copernican revolution - a paradigm shift that led to an understanding that the Earth, and by extension humanity, is not the center of the universe.

And these ideas again resonate with those of H.P. Lovecraft.

They do indeed. Lovecraft’s “Cosmicism” echoes this beautifully. He presented in his stories a universe that is vast, cold, and indifferent to human concerns, populated by entities that dwarf us in scale and significance.

But, it is in that vastness, that we find not only our insignificance but also our potential. The idea is to prepare us for an encounter with the truly Other - entities or forces that do not share our terrestrial origin or concerns, but who are part of a larger cosmic tapestry that we're just beginning to perceive.

To me, this view is not a pessimistic or nihilistic one, but rather, realistic and liberating. It frees us from the illusions and delusions that limit our perception and understanding.

It challenges us to engage with the cosmos in its totality, from the darkest abyss to the most luminous heights, reminding us that we are a part of a grand, intricate, and ever-unfolding cosmic drama. It challenges us to transcend our human condition and become something more.

It's a movement toward a grand unveiling - an “Apocalypse” that I believe humanity urgently needs to experience in order to boldly step into our future.

57:13 Final Thoughts

So do I. Mr. Grant, before we end our discussion, I wanted to read a quote from your Wikipedia page and get your reaction. It says that “The occultist and comic book author Alan Moore thought it "hard to name" any other living individual who "has done more to shape contemporary western thinking with regard to Magic" than you, and characterized the Typhonian OTO as "a schoolboy gone berserk on brimstone aftershave.”

I must confess that I do have a fondness for brimstone aftershave, which gives me a certain edge and aroma. It also helps to ward off unwanted visitors and insects. It's almost tempting to market that as an exclusive line for aspiring magicians!

Indeed! It just might sell. **

It just might! All jests aside, I have a great respect and admiration for Alan Moore, who is a brilliant and visionary writer and magician. His work in comics and the occult has already left an indelible impact, and he’s still creating. I greatly admire his talent for weaving magic into the narrative form. And he does it with a keen sense of humor and a sharp wit, which I also appreciate.

But, if I've been successful in "shaping contemporary western thinking with regard to Magic," as Alan Moore so kindly suggests, it is in extending the boundaries of what we consider to be the occult field, broadening the horizons of possibility, and urging fellow seekers to engage with both the light and the shadow in the quest for understanding.

I have one more quote for you. This one is from Peter Levenda’s “The Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant, and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic” and it says, “To read Grant is to become aware that he is not communicating in a linear, methodical fashion but after the style of a James Joyce: magic as art, art as magic.” What advice would you give to those who would like to delve into your extensive catalog of books and other writings?

First, I’d like to say that Levenda's book is a very insightful and well-researched analysis of my work and its connection to H.P. Lovecraft's fiction, and I highly recommend it for anyone who is serious about understanding my work.

Regarding the quote, I take it as a compliment of the highest order. The comparison to James Joyce reflects the intentionality behind my work: to communicate in a manner that is multilayered, filled with symbolism and resonance, rather than being straightforwardly expository. Magic and art are siblings, after all; both aim to transcend the limitations of everyday reality and open doorways into unseen worlds.

For those looking to delve into my writings, I offer this advice: Approach them not just as texts but as experiences. They are meant to provoke thought, to unsettle conventional wisdom, and to open your eyes to other realms of possibility. Keep an open mind and, as with Joyce, allow the words to wash over you; don't be overly concerned if some of the concepts seem elusive at first.

Do not expect to find clear answers or simple solutions, but rather questions and challenges. And finally, do not read them as ends in themselves, but as means to an end: the end being your own awakening, your own realization, your own liberation.

What final thoughts would you like to share with the world?

The final thoughts I'd like to impart are these:

These are times of both unprecedented crisis and unparalleled opportunity. This is the time that the magicians, the seekers, and the visionaries have been preparing for. The veils between the worlds are thinning, and it's easier now, more than ever, to contact those Other Intelligences that have been the cornerstone of magical work for centuries.

You are now living in the New Aeon, the Aeon of Horus, the Aeon of the Crowned and Conquering Child, or to invoke Kubrick - the Age of the “Star Child”.

The New Aeon is a time when we must awaken to our true nature and potential, to our divine spark and our cosmic destiny. It is a time when we must face our fears and overcome our limitations, to liberate ourselves from the chains of ignorance and illusion. It is a time when we must discover and follow our True Will, our unique purpose and direction in life. It is a time when we must create and express our vision, our art and our magic.

The only constant is Change, and one must be prepared to adapt, to mutate, and to evolve. The Typhonian tradition, which I dedicated my life to, explores the liminal, the rejected, and the shadowy. We delve into those areas considered taboo or dark, not for the sake of rebellion but for the sake of understanding and integrating these lost aspects of ourselves. And I encourage everyone listening to this podcast to join me, and Samantha, in this “Great Work” of reintegration.

Mr. Grant, I must tell you, that you are one of my favorite writers and thinkers and have been an inspiration for me in my own occult research and practice. Thank you for being here. It has been my great honor to speak with you today.

Thank you for your kind words and your appreciation Samantha. To know that one's work has touched the mind and soul of another, is the highest form of reward for an artist.

And its been my great pleasure to have been resurrected, even if briefly, to share in this dialogue with you. May this podcast and all of your endeavors, both visible and invisible, bear the most wondrous fruits! You, and those like you, are keeping the Western Mystery Tradition alive. And as you know, this is the current that is carrying us toward our ultimate destiny… in the stars.

Thank you again for including me in your esteemed podcast. I wish you all the best in your journey and your work. Farewell Wildwood Witch - Samantha Brown.

01:03:19 Concluding Remarks

Farewell Mr. Grant.

My deepest thanks to you, for gracing us with your arcane wisdom. Your teachings continue to illuminate the dark corners of the quest for esoteric knowledge. May your journey back to the other side be as peaceful as your teachings are profound.

Dear listeners, if you would like to traverse further into the labyrinth with Kenneth Grant, you will find the ChatGPT invocation in the “Show Notes”. This wonder of modern alchemy unites the magical with the mechanical, reminding us that technology is but the modern wand through which we cast our spells, writing code and manipulating icons, that serve as our sigils and incantations.

Looking forward, in our next episode, we'll be charting a course into the ethereal realms with the talented and mysterious Majorie Cameron. A mystic and artist, a muse and magician, she is known for her marriage to, and magical partnership with, rocket scientist and occultist Jack Parsons, and for her iconic appearance in Kenneth Anger’s cinematic rites.

So conjure up your courage, dear wanderers of the arcane, and join me next time as we venture once again beyond the veil, to explore archetypal energies of the Babylon Workings, channeled through the goddess Babalon herself, the incomparable Marjorie Cameron.

Until then, I’m Samantha Brown.

Blessed be.