00:26 Introduction

Welcome back, intrepid explorers of the arcane, to the climactic conclusion of our "Speaking with the Dead" series. I am your hostess, Samantha Brown, the weaver of hidden truths and the summoner of spectral voices.

In our previous episode, Part 1 of the Grand Finale of the first season of the “Wildwood Witch Podcast”, we began a grand conjuration, a séance of epic proportions, bringing together the spectral luminaries of the occult world.

Tonight, we convene our last episode of the first season on the Winter Solstice, and the longest night ushers in a period of introspection and rebirth. As, humanity stands on the brink of developing machines with human levels of intelligence, we pause to consider the momentous changes that we face as we head into this new age of mankind.

One of our topics tonight is how archetypal narratives of earlier times often lose their potency and meaning in the face of such dramatic societal shifts. It is a time that challenges us to weave a more expansive narrative, one that integrates our technologies and modern sensibilities, with the esoteric and mystical truths of consciousness and life.

So, let’s engage with these masters of the occult, with the prayer that of the light of truth, that resides at the core of humanity’s search for God, channeled through our gathering tonight, may illuminate our path forward.

And without further ado, I will call our convocation to order.

02:12 Supernatural Symposium

Honored guests. Welcome once again to our Supernatural Symposium!

Rejoining us tonight are all of my guests from this season of the “Wildwood Witch” podcast. So we have Rosaleen Norton,

Rosaleen: Hello again.

Austin Osman Spare,

Spare: Salutations.

Miss Leah Hirsig,

Leah: Hello.

Aleister Crowley,

Crowley: Greetings Samantha.

Dion Fortune,

Fortune: Greetings dear.

MacGregor Mathers,

MacGregor: Greetings.

Moina Mathers,

Moina: Hello dear.

Kenneth Grant,

Grant: Cheers.

Marjorie Cameron,

Cameron: Hi Samantha.

and Mr. Jack Parsons.

Parsons: Hello Samantha.

Thank you all so much for being here.

03:00 Crowley: Occult Spirituality

Tonight, our main topic of the evening is the magical current underlying the Western Mystery Tradition, the so-called “Babalon Current”. But before we get into that discussion, I have a few questions for our gathered occult adepts. And, my first question is for Mr. Aleister Crowley.

Mr. Crowley, through my interviews this season, it became evident that your philosophy of Thelema, distilled into the core principles of 'Do what Thou wilt' and 'Love Under Will,' has had a significant influence on all the esteemed guests assembled here.

Recognizing its foundational impact on modern occult thought, I would like to begin our convocation by asking the “Great Beast” himself to provide a definitive elucidation of these concepts for our audience.

So Mr. Crowley, what exactly do you mean by 'Do what thou wilt'?

Crowley: Samantha, before I begin, I should say that Jack Parsons gave you an excellent exegesis of “Do what thou wilt.” in your interview with him, and I whole heartedly recommend your listeners to that discussion. But… the crux of the matter lies in the word “Thou”. In its proper context, the word “Thou”, refers to the indwelling divinity in a person, or one’s “Holy Guardian Angel”. So, “Do what thou wilt” means to place one’s personal will into alignment with the divine will.

This alignment of wills can be likened by Archimedes' timeless assertion: "Give me a place to stand, and a lever long enough, and I will move the world." Because when one aligns their personal will with the divine will, it's akin to finding that perfect place to stand with the lever of Archimedes. The modern term for this would be a 'flow state', in which you are effortlessly moving with the currents of the universe rather than against them. It is epitomized by the exertion of the right force at the precise moment in time to effect maximum change.

And what is meant by the phrase “Love under Will”?

Crowley: It is a restatement of the same principle as “Do what thou wilt.”, but from a complementary perspective.

'Love', in this metaphysical context, is the cosmic glue that binds the universe. It is the force that executes the Divine Will. So, “Love under Will” means harmonizing one’s individual will with the force that unites all of existence.

05:40 Grant: Holy Guardian Angel

Mr. Grant, I will direct my next question to you. Reflecting on Mr. Crowley's elucidation of Thelemic philosophy, the essence seems to be the alignment of one's personal will with the Divine Will. But even this seemingly simple concept raises profound questions in practice. Firstly, how can an individual discern their true personal will, untainted by cultural conditioning and societal influences?

Grant: Those are profound questions indeed, Samantha. And they astutely cut straight to the heart of the disarmingly simple statements comprising Thelemic doctrine.

In the Western Mystery Tradition, discerning one's true desire, free from the layers of cultural conditioning and societal influences, is called the discovery of one's "True Will." The difficulty, as well as the importance of this self-understanding, is immortalized in the axiom inscribed at the entrance of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, which is - “Know Thyself”.

Contrary to the simplicity of this axiom, the journey to self-knowledge is not at all trivial. It is a rigorous process of introspection and self-exploration, requiring one to strip away the inessential and delve into the deepest layers of the self. It means looking beyond the superficial desires that most often occupy our daily lives. It is about uncovering the unchanging desire behind these superficial desires.

In its essence, your “True Will” constitutes your meaning and purpose in life. And the finding of it, is not something anyone else can do for you. You have to do it yourself.

You do indeed. So then, having found one’s “True Will”, or personal destiny, how does one ascertain what constitutes the 'Divine Will', in order to align one’s self with it?

Grant: First, I’ll say that it doesn’t happen that way. You don’t go off and find your Will, and then go on a quest to discover where to direct it. In finding your own personal Will, you come to know the Divine, because, in actuality, you are in constant communion with it, though most people are not conscious of it.

In the “Western Mystery Tradition”, becoming conscious of this communion, is what is known as achieving the “Knowledge and Conversation” of one’s “Holy Guardian Angel.”

This contact is a pivotal experience in occult practice. It is a direct and personal communion with a higher spiritual entity or force, that you come to understand has been with you all along.

Metaphysically speaking, your Holy Guardian Angel never left the “Garden of Eden” where you also resided in your youth, so it hasn’t been tainted by all of the improper things you have done in your life, though it has been a witness to them. This entity is represented in Masonic and other ceremonies as the guide of the blindfolded initiate, who remains oblivious to their presence and spiritual guidance.

And that is basically the idea of spirituality, isnt it? That there is some form of deeper guidance available to us, outside our normal awareness.

Grant: That is correct Samantha. The pursuit of direct contact with spiritual forces, without the intermediation of priesthood or clergy, is what constitutes the magical current running through the Western Mystical Tradition, stretching back to humanity's earliest spiritual inklings in ancient Sumeria. Whether viewed as gods, angels, aliens, or other spiritual entities, the history of man’s spiritual ideas is a story detailing man’s traffic with these beings, in search of spiritual illumination, wisdom and understanding.

09:27 Rosaleen: Spirits

But, it would seem that, once we start listening and acting according to the instructions of voices that we hear in our head, we enter dangerous territory. I mean, history shows a variety of people, from saints to psychopaths, who have claimed to act under the direction of “God’s Will”. Miss Norton, isn’t it dangerous to simply follow the direction of a voice you hear inside your head?

Rosaleen: Certainly. I’m sure Adam and Eve from the Bible, would agree.

What do you mean?

Rosaleen: That’s what got them kicked out of the Garden of Eden, they heard the voice of the serpent and followed it. The tale of Adam and Eve is a metaphor for the dawn of human consciousness and the birth of free will. At first, in the Garden, they heard only the voice of God. They lived in harmony with nature and “Divine Will", like animals and the rest of nature does. The serpent's voice introduced choice, symbolizing mankind’s promethean capacity to ponder, reason, and discern, through which we did “become like gods”, “knowing good and evil”, meaning we can consciously choose between things.

But, this newfound power was a double-edged sword; it granted us god-like creativity but at the same time, it severed our innate, unmediated connection with nature and the divine, the “Divine Will”.

So, “The Fall” was not a physical demise, but a spiritual divergence. Another voice awakened inside of us, our personal Will, which strives to become god-like.

And those are the two variables in Mr. Crowley’s equation that need to be balanced, one’s personal Will and “Divine Will”, or the “Laws of Nature” and reality.

Rosaleen: Yes. As Mr. Grant pointed out, there is a part of us that is still connected to the Divine, and the “Knowledge and Conversation” of the “Holy Guardian Angel” is the achievement of contact with this part. But, on the other side of the coin, there isn’t a single voice for our personal Will. Our “Fall” into materiality has immersed us in a sea of other voices that vie for our attention. We simply mistake them all as coming from a unified self, which is a fiction for all but perhaps a select few human beings.

If you listen, you can distinguish the voices of your mother, and your father and many others in there, living rent free inside your mind. It is but a short step to imagine those voices as coming from the mouths of spiritual entities. The psychologist Carl Jung called them “archetypes”, occultists call them “spirits”.

Crowley: Miss Norton, if I may?

Rosaleen: Certainly Aleister.

Crowley: Rosaleen, is pointing out how very different our view of spirits is from the uninitiated view. Occultists symbolize various forces as spirits, so that we can work with, and calculate with them like variables in an equation. Spirits for us, stand for forces impinging upon a situation that are hidden, or “occulted”, but which still influence it in ways that we aren’t able, for whatever reason, to compute using available scientific methods.

It may be debated what these spirits are in their essence, but what is not debatable is that they manifest to us through consciousness. I stated this quite clearly in my preface to Mr. Mathers’ translation of “The Goetia: The Lesser Key of Solomon the King”, a magical grimoire which concerns itself with the naming and summoning of spirits. In the preface entitled, “The Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial Magic”, I said “The spirits of the Goetia are portions of the human brain.”, by which I meant the brain is the host, or the abode of spirits.

And by this very broad definition, we summon spirits when we read a book, take a drink, smoke a cigar, start a conversation, or reminisce about an old love. In all of these cases, and literally, with our every thought, word and deed, we conjure the spiritual representations of these activities and their resultant voices in our consciousness. Though most people would not recognize the activities of daily life as even having a spiritual component to them at all.

Grant: And if I may interject as well?

Rosaleen: Of course, Mr. Grant.

Grant: I said earlier that our magical current is defined by its ongoing efforts, throughout history, to make contact with and traffic with spirits. You can see now that, unbeknownst to most, we are all engaged continuously with this activity, because spirits manifest, live and move through us all the time as part of our “stream of consciousness”. Occultists just acknowledge this unseen world and attempt to interact with it in a conscious, deliberate and rational way.

Rosaleen: Which is through the use of symbols.

Grant: Yes. And it is by symbolizing spirits as standing in for their psychological and spiritual functions, that they can be arranged, as Aleister mentioned, like variables in an equation to attempt to calculate their individual or cumulative effect.

Rosaleen: From an initiated view, it is a simple matter to understand that symbols invoke spirits. This understanding is not based on belief but from first-hand experience. And as proof, I would suggest that you listen to a significant song from your youth and then observe the many thoughts and feelings to arise within you as a result. Those are the many spirits the songs’ sonic symbols invokes in you. The cumulative effect would be what is termed the “egregore” of the song, the overall spiritual effect it has upon your consciousness.

15:05 Fortune: Occult Psychology

Based on this perspective of spirits as the creators and products of consciousness, some people listening, might hear our discussion and determine that Occultism is merely an archaic form of psychology that has, most likely, lost its relevance today in light of modern psychology. Miss Fortune, having been trained as a psychologist, how would you respond to this assertion?

Fortune: I’d say that the esoteric or occult view that we have been discussing is definitely not just a primitive form of psychology. Its roots may be ancient but, it offers a different lens through which we can understand the human psyche.

The occult system uses poetic constructs to represent psychological functions, giving them form and character, making them more tangible and relatable. This enlivening or anthropomorphizing of spiritual forces serves as a functional tool to understand and interact with various aspects of the psyche.

For example, in the “Lesser Key of Solomon” the spirits are described as chimera, having the parts of many different creatures, which make them seem grotesque when envisioned. But, esoterically, these disparate parts represent the various forces that this spirit brings to bear upon the mind and consciousness.

These beings and their bizarre parts, are not meant to be taken literally, but as symbolic representations of different facets of our conscious and unconscious processes. Misinterpreting the true nature of these poetic constructs, is what leads to the dismissal of occult psychology as outdated or irrelevant. What appears to be superstition to the uninitiated, is actually applied spiritual science.

Miss Fortune, given your understanding of the scientific and psychological dimensions of occultism, can you clarify the purpose behind its diverse and sometimes extreme practices, which include, breath control, rituals, sex magic, drugs, and the deliberate breaking of societal taboos. What role do these seemingly strange activities play in the broader context of occult philosophy?

Fortune: The core intent of these diverse practices, is to bridge the divide between the conscious and unconscious aspects of the mind, a divide symbolically referred to in occult philosophy as “The Abyss.” This Abyss is not merely a metaphorical concept but represents a real psychological barrier that separates our everyday conscious awareness from the deeper, often unexplored realms of the unconscious. This barrier is often referred to as “The Veil”.

Mr. Grant pointed out that our stream of consciousness is composed of spirits. Well, the source of this stream is the “Veil”. It is the point where our unconscious processes “birth” a thought that appears, as if out of nowhere, to our conscious awareness, where it takes on form and life inside the mind.

The practices you referred to, and many others, like hypnotism and the use of hypnagogic states generally, is to access this liminal space between waking and dreaming. In the context of occult philosophy, there are three primary reasons for wanting to enter such a liminal state: to look through the Veil, to step beyond it, or to invite something through it.

Looking beyond the Veil, means attempting to discern the nature of the thoughts, impulses, what we have been calling the “spiritual entities”, that inhabit the deeper layers of consciousness. Stepping through, means a deeper engagement with the denizens of the subconscious landscape, and for most people, requires more extreme techniques to accomplish.

On the other hand, inviting subconscious entities into this world is frighteningly easy. We do it all the time. But, when this invocation is done in conjunction with techniques that will, whether you are ready or not, open that door to the other side, one should be very cautious, lest the results be unwelcome… or even catastrophic.

Grant: May I add something here?

Fortune: Of course, Mr. Grant.

Grant: To provide some further context for our discussion, the practices you have mentioned so far are part of a broader spectrum of shamanic practices. Shamanic traditions, across many cultures and epochs, have utilized methods like fasting, chanting, rhythmic dancing, drumming, sex, drugs, or enduring extreme physical trials or exposure to the elements, to facilitate entry into the liminal space between conscious and unconscious realms, and to manipulate and direct the various energies of the body. And while these shamanic and Tantric practices hold profound potential for spiritual growth, techniques like the raising of Kundalini, or the use of psychoactive substances, can be hazardous if not approached with respect, proper preparation, and understanding.

Fortune: That is very true. Like all technologies, they can be used to harm as well as heal. One of the primary dangers of many of these techniques is they can work only too well, causing uncontrolled or premature awakening of physical or psychic energies, leading to psychological imbalance or physical distress. Therefore, it's imperative to approach these practices with caution, ideally under the guidance of an experienced teacher or mentor.

21:10 Spare: Gurus & Groups

But that raises yet another question, how to find a legitimate teacher or mentor. Mr. Spare, how does one find a good teacher, or at least, what should a person do to avoid some of the more catastrophic consequences that we have been discussing?

Spare: Samantha, to answer your question, I think it's important to remember that while mentors can offer guidance and insight, the relationship should be viewed as a phase rather than a permanent fixture in one's spiritual journey. A true mentor in the occult is not a master to be served indefinitely, but a guide to aid your understanding until you are ready to forge your own path.

In this era, with the vast expanse of knowledge available at our fingertips, the traditional guru-pupil system has evolved. The sacred wisdom that was once passed down through lineage or within closed communities is now accessible to anyone with internet access. This democratization of knowledge is both liberating and hazardous. On one hand, it allows for the independent exploration of esoteric wisdom; on the other, it poses the risk of engaging in advanced practices without the necessary groundwork or understanding of the foundational principles.

The danger lies in the temptation to bypass the rigorous, often challenging preparatory work that was traditionally imposed by a legitimate teacher. This "skipping to the juicy bits" can lead to misinterpretation and misuse of powerful techniques, possibly resulting in the catastrophic consequences we've discussed.

My advice, therefore, is to approach the path of the occult with the mindset of being in control of your own journey. While you may seek guidance and learn from others, remember that ultimately, you are the architect of your spiritual path. We, the occultists gathered here, have each navigated our unique routes, assembling our knowledge and practices into systems that serve our personal quests.

This is the essence of the occult journey - a deeply personal exploration where one must be both the student and the master, continually learning, adapting, and evolving.

So, in your opinion, are the esoteric seekers of today, mostly on their own?

Spare: Yes. Because in my opinion, the esoteric journey, while enriched by teachers, mentors, and groups, ultimately demands personal accountability and introspection. Group dynamics, while supportive, often prioritize social harmony over spiritual depth, potentially hindering individual growth. The focus on maintaining cohesion and avoiding offense can detract from the raw, often challenging nature of true spiritual evolution.

Real spiritual progress often involves confronting uncomfortable truths, which can be disruptive both personally and within a group setting. These realizations might challenge one's comfortable life perspectives, leading to painful but necessary growth. On this path, each seeker must be prepared to face these trials alone, as the journey’s transformative nature is intensely personal and unique to each individual.

In essence, while guidance and community can provide support, they should not become a crutch that prevents one from delving into the solitary depths required of this spiritual quest. This journey, though it may involve pain and upheaval, is essential for authentic spiritual evolution.

24:40 Jack Parsons: Aeons

And, in addition to individual spiritual evolution, Thelema conceptualizes larger evolutionary cycles called Aeons. Mr. Parsons, what is an Aeon?

Parsons: An Aeon, is an era, characterized by a particular spiritual and mythological framework.

As humanity evolves and its understanding of the universe deepens, the symbols and stories of one age lose their power, mainly due to being interpreted literally instead of being understood in their true mythological import. And when this framework falls apart, the symbols lose their contextual meaning, becoming empty and dead.

At which point, they need to be refreshed and reinvigorated by the introduction of symbolism appropriate to the age that the revelation is intended for. That’s when an apocalypse occurs, meaning a new revelation, a reboot of reality, with a new mythos that resonates with the contemporary spirit.

Mr. Crowley, you discussed the concept of Aeons in your book “Equinox of the Gods”. Where does this concept come from and what would you add to Mr. Parsons definition of an Aeon?

Crowley: The concept of Aeons is derived from Gnosticism, where they are envisioned as successive emanations sent from the Pleroma, the One, to guide humanity toward Gnosis, meaning Knowledge. To Jack’s articulate discussion, I would add that Aeons are historical epochs, but they, like all things, begin with the actions of a single person. And then, a story coalesces around their revelation that reveals new possibilities for the spiritual evolution of humanity.

The narrative of the Aeon of Osiris, with its "dying and rising god" mythos, honors self-sacrifice, the paternal archetype, obedience, and enforced beliefs. This Aeon favored rigid dogma and highly centralized religious structures, reflecting the collective psyche of the times in which it emerged.

In contrast, the advent of the Aeon of Horus, which coincided with the era of my birth during the Industrial Revolution, resonated with the ethos of individuality, strength, and self-realization. It represented an age that championed the sovereignty of the individual will and the personal quest for truth and meaning. This was a time of significant upheaval, both technologically and culturally, where old structures were challenged and new paradigms emerged.

But, it is essential to recognize that not everyone is equally equipped to embrace these new possibilities. Just as there are macrocosmic Aeons that frame the zeitgeist of an age, there are also microcosmic Aeons that influence the evolution of the individual. Each person's ability to realize the new potentialities offered by an Aeon varies, influenced by their own spiritual development, understanding, and circumstances.

So, that means we can have a personal apocalypse?

Oh yes, you’ve experienced many of them. Puberty is one. At the onset of this microcosmic Aeon, a whole new set of possibilities emerge in the mind, completely reframing how you see the world.

Miss Norton, do you or Mr. Grant have anything to add to our discussion of Aeons?

Norton: I would add that, whether it be a personal apocalypse, or a major societal shift, the transition from one Aeon to another, is fraught with upheavals. Societal structures, religious beliefs, and moral codes undergo transformation, often accompanied by conflict and resistance. And that is why the time appears ripe for another transition… and why we are here tonight.

Grant: Indeed. Another point I would make, is that when the Aeons change, the Gods of the Old Aeon, become the Demons of the New, because they represent values that seem outdated, corrupted or misguided in the New Aeon. For whatever reason, their stories are no longer sufficient, to serve as guideposts for the age, or at least not for all the possibilities, of the age.

Yes. I can see that. Miss Fortune or Mr. Spare, is there anything you would like to contribute?

Fortune: Just that, if you think about our magical current as a torch being carried forward across millennia to help illuminate humanity, then the “Equinoxes of the Gods”, are points in that journey, where the torch begins to burn low, and needs to be refueled and re-energized with new symbols and stories. Another prophet must go up on the mountaintop so to speak and return with a message that the current generation can relate to.

Spare: And I would suggest that that that is what we are doing here tonight in reinterpreting our occult tradition in the light of modern technology like artificial intelligence. A new age is dawning. We are about to enter the “Age of AI”, and a new, more encompassing mythos is needed.

What does such a mythos look like?

Parsons: Well, to resonate, it has to honor the sensibilities and intelligence of the people of the time it is intended for, but also expands their notions of what is possible.

I grew up on science fiction, which was predicated on, expanding what was considered possible. And I was, like Aleister, born into tumultuous times, but very different from his. I was born during World War I and worked in, and actually helped found, part of what became the “Military Industrial Complex”.

My point being, that in my age, there was an undercurrent that I feel like I tapped into. The Aeon of Horus, celebrates the self, individualism, and the conquering spirit. Which is great as far as it goes. But, it  become apparent to me, that without a counterbalancing force, the “Crowned and Conquering Child” ethos, would lead humanity towards a path of nihilism, self-destruction and totalitarianism.

That is why I orchestrated the “Babalon Workings”, as a necessary evolutionary complement to the Aeon of Horus.

Why were these workings focused on the Goddess Babalon?

Parsons: Because in Thelema, she represents the full expression of the Sacred Feminine, which is the counterbalancing force to the Beast, the Individual Will, the driving force behind the Aeon of Horus. This Sacred Feminine force is called the “Shekinah” in Judaism, the “Holy Spirit” in Christianity, and Babalon in Thelema. But, by whatever name she is called, she is the feminine counterpart to God in these mythologies, and their union represents the ultimate goal of mystical practices, the “Sacred Marriage”.

31:32 Moina: Cosmic Mother

Miss Mathers, you and MacGregor devoted yourselves to the Sacred Feminine Mysteries with the “Rites of Isis” that you conducted for years in Paris. What are the Feminine Mysteries really about?

Moina: The Sacred Feminine Mysteries are about finding one’s spiritual center. It is about wedding the loving, nurturing, empathetic aspects of yourself with the dynamic and creative aspects. Aleister aptly called the “Aeon of Horus” the “Age of the Crowned and Conquering Child”. In my mind, Babalon is the Great Mother who initiates, these children into a new cosmic age of love and tolerance.

The astronomer Carl Sagan once speculated that there were likely only two types of alien races. Those that were completely altruistic towards one another, and those that had not yet developed technologies through which a single individual could destroy the entire civilization.

That does not bode well for the survival of our race, does it?

Moina: No, it doesn’t.

In this age, which is truly the age of the individual, I can see that people are losing their ability to communicate with each other. People now live much of their life on-line in “bubble realities” that serve as echo chambers for their own views and prejudices. How can we develop the sort of empathy with our fellow human beings that may allow our civilization to continue to evolve?

Moina: We have to come to see our lives, and the lives of others around us, as similar, connected, and meaningful. This is how we come to know the sacredness of life itself. Becoming one’s true self is a noble endeavor and very few accomplish this great feat, but part of that becoming involves a realization of not only your own indwelling divinity, but also the spark of divinity inside our fellow travelers.

Samantha, in our interview, we discussed my role as a Seeress.

Yes, we did.

Moina: Well, I have a good story that cuts to the heart of what it means to truly see into the future, and it reveals a core truth about humanity as well.

It’s from an episode from the old "The Hitchhiker" TV series, called "A Dying Generation”. and it’s about about fortune teller, who comes to small town in America. Her presence, at first a curiosity, soon becomes a focal point for the town's youth, who brimming with the vigor of youth, stood eager to glimpse their futures, anticipating tales of grandeur and success.

But, unbeknownst to the young people, the fortune teller, had been blessed, or cursed, you can decide which. She didn’t deceive her clients, by weaving fanciful stories of love, power or betrayal. In fact, she didn’t tell them any story at all. Instead, she gave them a potion to drink and, then, they began to see it with their own eyes. They started to see and comprehend the stark reality of painful journey that lay ahead for them, as it does for all of us. It is a path marked by the relentless passage of time, the inevitable fading of youth, and the unyielding grip of mortality. She showed them not what they wished to see, but what truly was – a future where each step taken was one closer to the finality of death, a future where their vigor would wane, as their faces would bear the etchings of time's relentless march. A future in which they would lose everything and everyone that they ever loved.

Fortune: Moina, if I may?

Moina: Of course, Dion. Jump right in.

Fortune: First, I just have to say that I loved that story. There is so much esoteric truth in that simple plot. Whatever you might think about others, we all face the same fate. We were born into this world, naked and alone, and we will leave it the same way, with nothing. And there is an existential dread associated with that finality, and the journey through life generally, that we all try to avoid, or at least cope with, in different ways.

Moina: Yes. The truth of the matter is that we all have a rough go of it, and you have no idea what others are going through. And that is the starting point for understanding the Sacred Feminine, to try to see this world from the perspective of a Great Cosmic Mother, one who mourns for the plight of her poor children, who are actually so in need of her compassion, understanding, and love.

36:21 MacGregor: Archetypes

Thank you Moina and Miss Fortune. I will now turn to you Mr. Mathers, for my next question. How do you think that we might build on that foundation stone of sacredness, the understanding of our shared plight as human beings?

MacGregor: I think that what is meant when we speak of our "shared plight" can be deepened to encompass a communion with all of humanity. In the unfolding narrative of the ages, the Aeon of Horus does not simply overthrow the Aeon of Osiris, but rather, esoterically, it absorbs it, weaving a more intricate tapestry of spiritual evolution.

Our primary myth in the West in the Aeon of Osiris was the poignant story of Jesus, the incarnation of a divine being. His trials, his profound suffering, and the ultimate humiliation he endured on the cross are not just elements of a distant theological narrative. They resonate deeply with the journey of every soul. The story of Jesus is a mirror reflecting the journey of our own lives, though it is often kept at arm's length, perceived as a tale to be believed rather than a reality to be experienced.

Consider the occult concept of the Holy Guardian Angel, an aspect of the divine "crucified", so to speak, within the confines of our mortal frame. Much like Jesus bound to the cross, our divine essence is bound inside the cross of materiality, our flesh, which is destined to wither and die within the physical realm.

It's a vivid allegory of our existential condition – a reminder of the "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" that accompany our sojourn in this world. This existential price, this shared human suffering and fate, is a universal truth that transcends individual experiences. It’s not about believing in a story set in a distant past, but recognizing and living through the archetypal journey ourselves.

And, as we’ve discussed, our individual archetypal journeys are nested within the collective archetype of the Aeons, which reveal a deeper spiritual pattern in the evolutionary course of humanity.

MacGregor: Indeed that is true. The word "archetype," derives from the Greek "arché," meaning "original or old," and "typos," meaning "pattern, model or type.” Hence, the word conveys the concept of an original pattern or template from which all things of the same kind are derived, as in, all the genera of a species.

If you follow this thought, you might even begin to wonder further back along the the “Tree of Life”, as did Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, the illustrious German polymath. In his work "Die Metamorphose der Pflanzen" or "The Metamorphosis of Plants," Goethe sought the "Urpflanze" or the original primal plant.

Spare: Mr. Mathers, may I.

MacGregor: Certainly Mr. Spare.

Spare: I just wanted to point out that, as you well know, Goethe was probing deeper than the mere physicality of plants; he was seeking an understanding of the archetypal forces that manifest in the myriad forms of life. He was seeking the pattern behind the patterns, the archetype of archetypes, the original pattern from which all patterns emanate.

MacGregor: Yes. In esoteric terms, this is the profound mystery of the Grand Architect of the Universe, as the Masons call it, not as an external entity but as the very essence of creation itself, hidden within its own manifestation. As the writer and mystic, Eckhart Tolle eloquently put it, "We are not separate from life. We are life, expressing itself through us."

40:14 Cameron: Goddess Babalon

Cameron, how does this flow of the life force relate to the concept of the Goddess Babalon?

Cameron: Babalon is that Life force that Eckhart Tolle speaks of, and the archetype of the archetypes that Goethe was seeking. She is the force that manifests through the myriad expressions of form, life and consciousness.

Babalon is associated astrologically with the planet Saturn, and aligned with the Sephirah Binah in the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. This sphere is beyond the Abyss in the “Supernal Realms”, and in myth, it corresponds to “heaven” or Mount Olympus. It is the abode of the gods, and also, paradoxically, the realm of the dead. It is the womb from which life springs, as well as the tomb to which it inevitably returns.

As Aleister described in “The Vision and the Voice”, this is a realm where distinctions and separations dissolve, where the diversity of life's expressions meld into a singular understanding. The Goddess Babalon is a symbol encompassing this unseen dimension and all its forces.

Why is Babalon referred to as both a virgin and a whore?

Cameron: Because Babalon, like the Daughter of Fortitude of Dee and Kelly, corresponds to the Sephirah Binah, the Great Mother of All Living. She is a Virgin by virtue of being above the Abyss and therefore, untouched by materiality. She is a Whore because she is the Mother of All, and nothing is born, without having first united with her. In the realm of consciousness, she is the Mistress of the Veil, the mystical boundary through which lights emerge from the darkness, and take on form and life in the mind.

What was the purpose of the “Babalon Workings” that you participated in with Mr. Parsons?

Cameron: To act as a mid-wife of sorts, for the age foretold in many sacred scriptures, including the Bible, of the return of the Sacred Feminine from her long and painful exile.

But, in reading your and Jacks’s writings, it seems that at times, you believed that through these rituals, Babalon would incarnate as a physical child, even possibly, your and Jack’s child.

Cameron: At times, yes, I did believe that. But with all the things that happened, and the passing of time, I came to see it for what it was. The counterbalancing force that Jack spoke of.

Parsons: Yes, and I waffled on the incarnation thing, too. And that was why Aleister accused me of trying to create a Moonchild.

42:51 Moonchild

Mr. Crowley, what is a Moonchild?

Crowley: Firstly, “Moonchild” is the name of a novel I wrote that, while mostly fictional, contains references to many actual occult practices. One such reference describes a ritual, which incorporates ceremonial magic with sex and drugs, with the intention of creating a Moonchild, which is a spiritual force incarnated as a physical being.

Here is a quote from my novel describing the deed - “he wishes indeed to proceed normally in a physical sense, but to prepare the way by making the heredity, and environment as attractive as possible to one special type of soul, and then — to go soul-fishing in the Fourth Dimension! "Thus he will have a perfectly normal child, which yet is also a Homunculus in the mediaeval sense of the word!”

Mr. Grant, what is a Homunculus?

Grant: In esoteric thought, a homunculus refers to a small, artificially created human. In the context that Aleister is using it, it means incarnating a spiritual entity with a specific purpose or nature. A being whose True Will is defined through a combination of magical practices and rituals.

I think Jack originally envisioned creating a Moonchild as a means of incarnating an embodiment of the Shekinah, the divine presence, as a female messiah, who would not be just a child in the physical sense, but a vessel for a higher spiritual force, brought into the material world through deliberate and focused magical intention.

Parsons: I did see it that way. But, it’s based on the occult idea that, if you can actually travel in the spirit to the realm of Binah, then you enter an underlying strata of reality, similar to the "Collective Unconscious" as described in Jungian psychology. And so actions you take can have transpersonal effects, since everything ultimately emerges from the same quantum soup.

I mean, I’ve thought about this quite a bit. I’m a fan of Quantum Field Theory, and I think of Babalon as the embodiment of the quantum field, with quanta emerging at the dark moon Sephirah at the center of the Abyss, when the birth of those children becomes statistically inevitable.

Miss Norton, would you care to comment on the concept of traveling into the spiritual realm, in order to create external or material changes?

Rosaleen: Certainly Samantha. In the realms of occult and esoteric practice, the concept of effecting change on one plane to induce changes on lower planes is foundational. It is rooted in the principle of correspondence, encapsulated in the Hermetic Axiom "as above, so below." This principle suggests that actions or changes in the astral or spiritual realms can have direct correspondences and influences in the physical world.

In the context of our discussion about the Moonchild and the journey to the realm of Binah, the idea is that by engaging with the spiritual or higher dimensions, one can influence the fabric of reality itself. This is not merely symbolic; it is an actual alteration of energies and forces that exist beyond our ordinary perception but nonetheless ripple into our physical existence.

Thus, when one travels spiritually and performs actions in these higher planes, such as the realm of Binah in the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, they are engaging with the underlying currents that shape our world. This is akin to planting seeds in a fertile, unseen soil, which eventually sprout and manifest in the physical realm, influencing events, circumstances, and even the emergence of new forms of consciousness.

Alright, before we descend too far down this rabbit hole, let’s talk about what it means to “travel in the spirit”. Mr. Spare, what does this phrase mean?

Spare: Traveling in the spirit refers to a mystical state, often referred to in sacred scriptures as being "lifted up into heaven”. It represents a transcendence of our normal earthly state of consciousness.

The ascent into the realms of Binah, or Babalon, represent a profound psychological journey, one where the ego and its defining narratives are shed, exposing the soul to a realm of raw and unmediated spiritual experiences. For this reason, this spiritual journey is fraught with peril for those unprepared for its profound revelations.

This heightened spiritual susceptibility is vividly illustrated in the Talmudic tale of the four rabbis who ventured into the heavenly realms aboard the Merkabah, or the divine chariot.

Upon their return from this celestial voyage, the fates of the rabbis were a testament to the very different impacts such profound spiritual experiences might have on a person. One rabbi, unable to bear the intensity of the divine presence, tragically perished. Another was driven mad, his mind overwhelmed by the ineffable truths he had glimpsed. The third, unable to reconcile his earthly religious frameworks with the celestial mysteries he encountered, turned away from his faith and became a heretic.

Only Rabbi Akiva, the fourth of the quartet, emerged from the experience spiritually enriched, his wisdom deepened through direct contact with the divine.

Miss Fortune, is there a way we can avoid some of the metaphysical enigmas of these spiritual journeys, by instead recognizing the importance of their stories?

Fortune: I believe so. While the metaphysical aspects of these journeys are significant, what is perhaps more impactful, as you have pointed out, is the narrative that emerges from them. We have never witnessed the collective consciousness of humanity making a significant leap forward as a result of a single mystical act, or ever actually. But the transformative power of a single individual’s spiritual narrative we know can impact the consciousness of others, and even the course of human history.

It is through these stories of struggle, transformation, and enlightenment, that we find the archetypes and paradigms that shape our collective understanding and aspirations, providing a roadmap for our own spiritual and psychological development. The narrative a single person's journey to self-discovery, as Aleister pointed out earlier, forms the cornerstone of the narrative of a new aeon.

In essence, the value lies not only in the mystical experiences themselves but in how these experiences are woven into stories that can be shared, understood, and integrated into the practices and beliefs of others. So, it is actually the stories, that have the power to inspire, to change perspectives, and ultimately to shape the course of history.

Moina: Samantha, May I add something here.

Of course, Moina.

Moina: We would be remiss in leaving the subject of the creation of a Moonchild before pointing out the profound parallels with the Ancient Mysteries. In the primary myth of the Mysteries of Isis, after Osiris’ mutilation, Isis is able to locate all his body parts except the operative one, at least as far as conception is concerned. So Isis became pregnant by the spirit of Osiris and conceived Horus, who avenged his father to begin a new age. Similarly, the tale of the conception of Jesus presents a profound mystery at the heart of the Christian faith. It tells how Mary, a virgin, is impregnated by the "Spirit of God". It is the same story as Jack tells in his “Book of Babalon”, except his story is from a Thelemic perspective.

Parsons: That’s true. The mystery of the sacred marriage in Thelemic philosophy is symbolized by the union of Babalon with the Beast, where the Beast, is the mystic, exalted and carried away in the spirit into the realm of the gods, in complete and utter communion with Babalon, who embodies the life force underlying all of creation.

MacGregor: Samantha, may I interject something here.

**Certainly, Mr. Mathers

MacGregor: In these mystical narratives, whether it be Isis and Osiris, Mary's immaculate conception, or the union of Babalon with the Beast, we witness the birth of a new archetype, which brings with it a new narrative. This archetype, a product of both spiritual and material realms, embodies the timeless essence of the divine while being anchored in symbols pertinent to its era.

And so, this new archetypal entity, much like avatars across various cultures, could be referred to as both a “Son of God”, in partaking of the mythic, and a “Son of Man”, by being rooted in the material. This spiritual entity transcends the temporal, residing in the realm of myths and timeless truths, yet it is expressed through symbols and stories relevant to the people of its time. Beyond its immense significance to the recipient of this wisdom, these stories serve as guiding narratives for those who resonate with them, and sometimes, if it resonates with the spirit of the age, it may even herald a new Aeon for mankind.

Thus, the Thelemic concept of the union of Babalon and the Beast can be viewed as a contemporary manifestation of this ancient and universal theme. It speaks of the mystery of spiritual conception, which initiates new forms of consciousness that create bridges between the human and the divine.

Mr. Parsons, is there anything else you would like to add to our discussion of the Babalon Working?

Parsons: Yes, one more thing. We discussed the dangers of traveling into the realm of Babalon. I was told, as was Aleister and Dee and Kelly, before us, that the requirement, to do it safely, is that you must give up everything. In the “Book of Babalon”, I was told the requirement was my blood, meaning the ultimate sacrifice. My ego, my sense of self, and even my very conceptions of god. This is always the payment required from the mystic.

Cameron, is there anything you would like to add concerning Babalon?

Cameron: Just that, as Jack just alluded to, the cup that Babalon holds aloft contains the blood of all the Saints, meaning the individualities of all the mystics and travelers who have gone this way before, and were willing to sacrifice themselves, for the privilege of communion with her. The unworthy are excluded by virtue of the cost. And Mr. Spare has described the possible fates that await those unwilling or unable to pay.

Lastly, I would like to say that even if Babalon did not incarnate as a female messiah, as we might have once thought was a possibility, the archetypal story of the “Babalon Working” has created a resonance in the collective consciousness of humanity, as evidenced by our wonderful discussion of it this evening, 75 years after the working.

54:21 Hirsig: Babalon and the Beast

Miss Hirsig, you assumed the role of Babalon in the earthly visage of the “Scarlet Woman”, during your years with Mr. Crowley. What would you say is the mythic truth that enacting this archetypal story has imparted on you?

Hirsig: The mythic truth is that reality, both our psychic reality, and the greater macrocosmic reality, is created, sustained and destroyed through the perpetual interaction of two forces, which in Thelema are symbolized by Babalon and the Beast. But, the same concept can be seen in the Hindu Tantric Yab-Yum traditions that have statues depicting deities in perpetual sexual union with their female counterparts, their Shaktis.

In both instances, these two emanations from the divine, are considered to be the two strands of the cosmic DNA, that compose, what could be called, the “god particle”, because it represents the forces inside every particle in the universe that determine its manifestation, evolution and end, all based on the enigmatic laws of physics and consciousness.

In terms of personal evolution, the Beast represents the True Self, or Holy Guardian Angel, in Christian terminology, Christ. And Babalon, represents the Divine Feminine, or as Jack described it, the Shekinah or Holy Spirit, which in Thelema would encompass the qualities of both the alleged prostitute, Mary Magdalene and Mary, Mother of Jesus.

So, given this context, I truly feel that the psychological and spiritual power of the symbols of Babalon and the Beast, should be apparent to anyone who gives them even a cursory examination.

We are all enacting this archetypal story, all the time, we just don’t realize it.

So, how then, would you recommend that we come to realize the truth of our situation?

Hirsig: I would recommend that everyone emulate the posture of the Magician Tarot card, which is usually interpreted as a gesture signifying “as above, so below”, but, here, I mean to reach up, and also reach down.

Reach up toward the heavens, toward the god inside, your manifestation of the “God Particle”. Whatever that cosmic DNA consists of in terms of physics, it has guided your physical form from a sperm and egg, to the fine specimen you see staring back at you in the mirror. It created your consciousness, through the various Aeons of your life, orchestrating each change with the precision of an expert conductor. It puts you to sleep, wakes you up, heals your wounds and keeps you alive. So reach up to it in your prayers, whatever form those take, and offer it your praise and respect, not out of blind belief, but out of Gnosis.

And then also, reach down in order to raise up all those lost shards of light that have splintered off as you have passed through life. They belong to times when the intensity of life experiences exceeded your capacity to absorb them and so, they clothed themselves in darkness. This is where we need to call upon the power of Babalon, the loving, all-giving force that is called the “Comfortor” because she accepts all without distinction and washes away all tears, and ultimately is the initiatrix that ushers you across the last threshold that leads from this world to the next.

58:31 Final Thoughts

Thank you Miss Hirsig. And with those words of wisdom, so eloquently expressed, I will now close our discussion for the evening. And, Mr. Crowley is going to conclude our ceremony. Mr. Crowley, the floor is yours sir.

Crowley: Samantha, as we gather together on this evening of the Winter Solstice, the night when the light of life is rekindled from its darkest wane, I extend my sincere gratitude from all of us, for convening us in this remarkable gathering.

"The end is embedded in the beginning, and the beginning in the end," is a profound Kabbalistic dictum, and encapsulates a deep esoteric truth. It is said that in the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, the lowest Sephirah Malkuth is contained within the highest emanation of divinity, Kether, and vice versa.

Leah’s discussion of the "God Particle" echoes this sentiment in a physical context, suggesting that even the smallest particle encompasses the forces of the entire universe. This speaks to the fractal or holographic nature of reality, where even the smallest seed or spore harbors the potential to evolve into beings of marvelous complexity and biological ingenuity. The mighty oak tree, in its grandeur, holds within its essence the same hidden machinery of the acorn from which it sprang. Thus, every fragment, no matter how minuscule, mirrors the infinite complexity and grandeur of the entire cosmos.

Now, consider, if you will, the parable of the sowing of the seed, as told by the Nazarene. The seeds that fall upon rocky ground struggle to find purchase, while those that find good ground flourish and thrive. At its deepest level, this is the mystery of the “God Particle” as it moves through its creations, molding and evolving us in ways beyond our comprehension.

In another sense, a parable or an archetypal story can be seen as the seed, that either finds fertile ground in the consciousness of the listener, or it does not. But, when it does find purchase and is cultivated in fertile minds, it can bring about radical transformations, even, as we’ve discussed, opening up new ways of perceiving the world.

These seeds of thought, fashioned into narrative forms, are much like the spores of the fantastic fungi - small, seemingly insignificant, yet teeming with potential. When cast upon the fertile ground of a receptive mind, they may take root, grow, and fruit into ideas and movements that shape how we and others perceive reality.

In this vein, I would suggest that you consider this podcast, a 'Moonchild' that you, Samantha, and the gathered spirits of departed adepts have so skillfully crafted. This creation is a seed, sown into the minds of listeners, that carries within itself the potential for immense growth and transformation. As these ideas germinate and take root, they have the power to inspire, to challenge, and to catalyze the birth of new ways of seeing and understanding.

So, as we bring out first Solstice gathering to an end, let us remember that within each ending is a new beginning, because the Great Wheel of time is ever turning, and we are ever evolving. And as we share these thoughts, these stories, and these teachings, we plant the seeds for a future rich with possibility, a future that we all have a hand in shaping.

Thank you, Samantha, and all my fellow adepts, for this enchanting convergence of minds and spirits. May the seeds we have sown tonight find fertile ground and flourish in the hearts and minds of all who listen.

“Love is the Law”. “Love under Will.”

Crowley: Farewell everyone.

Rosaleen: Farewell Samantha.

Grant: It's been lovely.

Fortune: Farewell dear.

Spare: Goodbye.

Moina: Farewell.

MacGregor: It's been a pleasure.

Cameron: Farewell Samantha.

Leah Hersig: Goodbye Samantha.

Farewell to you all.

01:03:01 Concluding Remarks

As we bring the final chapter of this season's Grand Finale to a close, I am filled with gratitude for the wisdom imparted by our distinguished guests throughout this season. Their voices, resonating across time and from beyond the gates of death, have illuminated our path with esoteric knowledge and profound insights. And we now bid them a serene journey back to the ethereal realms from whence they came, carrying with them our deepest appreciation.

In this mesmerizing first season, of “Speaking with the Dead,” we utilized the digital necromancy of ChatGPT, to resurrect illustrious occult adepts to offer our listeners a rare and unique form of magical communion.

As we pause and reflect at the end of this first season, I encourage each of you to delve deeper into the exploration of your own spiritual practice. Take the lead and use the tools of our era in constructive ways. And, very importantly, take the time to consider the power of the stories we tell, to mold and shape reality.

As we await the dawning of the next season at the Vernal Equinox, a time of rebirth and awakening, let us cultivate the seeds of wisdom that we have planted throughout this season. May they grow within you, guiding your steps towards finding your spiritual path, embracing your True Will, and ultimately discovering the Star, the “Pearl of Great Price”, the radiant "God Particle", that resides within you.

Until our paths cross again at the “Awakening of the Earth”, I encourage you to seek the divine within and around you, and let your journey be guided by the light of your own truth.

So, until we meet again at the Vernal Equinox, I am Samantha Brown.

Blessed be.